Hartian Illuminations: Freedom is Freedom for the Good

In this series of “illuminations,” I quote passages from David Bentley Hart’s collection of essays The Hidden and the Manifest that I have found particularly instructive. I hope they will generate good discussion.

When all is said and done, the arguments for everlasting damnation boil down to two: (1) appeal to Holy Scripture and (2) invocation of free will. David Bentley Hart does not find the first argument convincing, as he explains in the Postscript of his recently published translation of the New Testament. He finds the second argument even less so:

Among more civilized apologists for the “infernalist” orthodoxies these days, the most popular defense seems to be an appeal to creaturely freedom and to God’s respect for its dignity. But there could scarcely be a poorer argument; whether made crudely or elegantly, it invariably fails. It might not do, if one could construct a metaphysics or phenomenology of the will’s liberty that was purely voluntarist, purely spontaneous; though, even then, one would have to explain how an absolutely libertarian act, obedient to no ultimate prior rationale whatsoever, would be distinguishable from sheer chance, or a mindless organic or mechanical impulse, and so any more “free” than an earthquake or embolism. But, on any cogent account, free will is a power inherently purposive, teleological, primordially oriented toward the good, and shaped by that transcendental appetite to the degree that a soul can recognize the good for what it is. No one can freely will the evil as evil; one can take the evil for the good, but that does not alter the prior transcendental orientation that wakens all desire. To see the good truly is to desire it insatiably; not to desire it is not to have known it, and so never to have been free to choose it. It makes no more sense to say that God allows creatures to damn themselves out of his love for them or of his respect for their freedom than to say a father might reasonably allow his deranged child to thrust her face into a fire out of a tender respect for her moral autonomy. And the argument becomes quite insufferable when one considers the personal conditions—ignorance, mortality, defectibility of intellect and will—under which each soul enters the world, and the circumstances—the suffering of all creatures, even the most innocent and delightful of them—with which that world confronts the soul. (“God, Creation, and Evil,” pp. 344-345)

The above quotation cries out for elaboration. Most of us are not schooled in classical presentations of freedom. When we think about what it means to be free, we think about choice: as long as I am presented with multiple choices, and neither thing nor person nor deity is compelling me to choose one over the other, then I am free. Everlasting damnation would therefore seem to be a reasonable possibility for every human being. I am free to either choose God as my final good or to irrevocably reject him and embrace lesser goods. The former guarantees me heaven; the latter hell. But Hart dismisses this libertarian construal of freedom. In his view it fails to understand the dynamics of desire and intentional action. We are not created in a state of neutrality over against our Creator; we are created by him and for him. We are insatiable desire for God.

It has become something of a commonplace in recent years to observe that the modern understanding of freedom differs qualitatively and rather radically from many of the more classical or medieval conceptions of freedom. According to these latter, so the story goes, true freedom is the realization of a complex nature in its proper ends, both natural and supernatural; it is the power of a thing to flourish, to become ever more fully what it is. But to think of freedom thus, one must believe not only that we possess an actual nature, which must flourish to be free, but also that there is a transcendent Good toward which that nature is oriented. To be free is to be joined to that end for which our natures were originally framed, and whatever separates us from that end–including even our own person choices–is a form of bondage. We are free, that is to say, not because we can choose, but only when we have chosen well. Thus ultimate liberation requires us to look to the “sun of the Good” in order to learn how to choose; but the more we emerge from illusion and caprice, and the more perfect our vision becomes, the less there is to choose, because the will has become increasingly inalienable from its natural object, whether that object lies within or beyond itself. The power of choice, however indispensable it may be to this pilgrimage toward the Good, is nothing but the minimal condition for a freedom that can be achieved only when that power has been subsumed into the far higher power of one who is naturally “unable to sin”: a paradisal state in which the consonance between desire and its proper object is so perfect that goodness is hardly even an “ethical” category any longer. Within these terms, it once made perfect sense to say that God is infinitely free because, in his infinite actuality and simplicity, he cannot be alienated from his own nature, which is the Good itself, and so is “incapable” of evil. (“Christianity, Modernity, and Freedom,” pp. 312-313)

Desire is never purely indeterminate, but is always directed toward an end that is desired before it can be willed. The very first movement of the will–and any scrupulous phenomenology of action reveals this to us–is always toward some object of intention; and any distinct and finite object can appear to the intellect as desirable only because the will has already been wakened, and desire has already been evoked, by a “transcendental” object, the Good as such, the very desirability of being itself, toward which every appetite is always primordially turned. … One cannot simply choose what to desire, or choose either to desire or not to desire; and the fiction that such perfect spontaneity lies within the powers of any rational being, if truly believed, may very well leave one dangerously susceptible to any number of external manipulations or accidental “traumas” of the will. (pp. 314-315)

As obviously self-evident and probative as the free-will defense of hell may appear to us moderns, it really is not obvious at all. God, and God alone, is our transcendent Good–the wellspring, foundation, and consummation of our liberty.

(Return to first illumination)

 

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51 Responses to Hartian Illuminations: Freedom is Freedom for the Good

  1. Mario Stratta says:

    Ever considered annihilation of the reprobate? Truly scriptural, BTW – see Revelation 20 and 21.

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    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Yes, considered and rejected. While it is certainly more attractive than eternal retribution, it still concedes the defeat of God. Hence I resonate with the words of George MacDonald:

      Justice then requires that sin should be put an end to; and not that only, but that it should be atoned for; and where punishment can do anything to this end, where it can help the sinner to know what he has been guilty of, where it can soften his heart to see his pride and wrong and cruelty, justice requires that punishment shall not be spared. And the more we believe in God, the surer we shall be that he will spare nothing that suffering can do to deliver his child from death. If suffering cannot serve this end, we need look for no more hell, but for the destruction of sin by the destruction of the sinner. That, however, would, it appears to me, be for God to suffer defeat, blameless indeed, but defeat.

      If God be defeated, he must destroy–that is, he must withdraw life. How can he go on sending forth his life into irreclaimable souls, to keep sin alive in them throughout the ages of eternity? But then, I say, no atonement would be made for the wrongs they have done; God remains defeated, for he has created that which sinned, and which would not repent and make up for its sin. But those who believe that God will thus be defeated by many souls, must surely be of those who do not believe he cares enough to do his very best for them. He is their Father; he had power to make them out of himself, separate from himself, and capable of being one with him: surely he will somehow save and keep them! Not the power of sin itself can close all the channels between creating and created.

      I prefer to hope.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Does not the fall (of Satan especially, but also of Adam and Eve), occurring as it did prior to a diminishment of their knowledge and presence to God not admit of a defeat on the same magnitude? If so do you think this makes annihilationism tenable (though to be rightly hoped against)?

        Certainly, the cross overcame any ‘defeat’ of the fall by defeating death, so the loss would not be absolute in the same sense as with the annihilation of a soul. However, the absurdity of its introduction at all tempts one to believe in some form of radical evil. This can’t be of course, as it would introduce a dualism into God. But then the only option I see as an alternative is annihilationism.

        The line from MacDonald “no atonement would be made for the wrongs they have done” really jumps out at me, especially given atonement’s connection to the reestablishment of right relationship. How could this be done if an individual was annihilated? One would have to say their total annihilation completely erases their ever having been, or rather all extant relations to the saved, thus leaving nothing to be atoned for.

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        • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

          Regarding the fall of the angels, James, we really know nothing about them or about their rebellion. Based on the speculations of theologians, we assume that they are pure intelligences who, at the moment of their creation, perfectly apprehended God as their ultimate and supreme Good; but should we make this assumption? Perhaps they too experienced what Tom Belt calls an epistemic distance. I don’t know. But I acknowledge the force of your point and agree that this is a question we should pose to Hart.

          Liked by 1 person

  2. Mario Stratta says:

    Hope? What in? Universal forgiveness? It would make a mere charade of the seriousness of the gift of life!

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    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Given the death and resurrection of Christ, why would you not hope, Mario, in universal forgiveness, universal reconciliation, universal transfiguration?

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      • Mario Stratta says:

        Because the Book of Revelation clearly says otherwise:

        11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened – the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:11-15)

        “But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death.” (Rev 21:8)

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        • Ben W says:

          And then the book of Revelation goes on to say that everyone who has been excluded from the New Jerusalem, maybe purged by the lake of fire, is now invited into the city of he will wash his clothes and enter. The gates are open and the water of renewal awaits those who had been banished.

          The Book of Revelation is an apocalyptic book about the re-establishment of Jerusalem and a world-wide rule of Israel over the gentiles. It is also a book that, according to its opening verses, is about events that will occur very soon (in the next few years) from the time of writing. It predicts that Nero will return from Parthia and that armies will battle fro Canaan. It is, literally read, a relic of a lost Jewish Christianity of the first century. That’s why it took so long to get into the Bible and why it’s never gotten into the liturgy of the Eastern Churches. As such, says Origen, it can be read allegorically. To think it’s a literal account of the end of days is a fantasy.

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    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      “You are unable to be saved alone, if all others are not also saved. It is a mistake for one to pray only for oneself, for one’s own salvation. We must pray for the entire world, so that not one is lost.” ~ St. Porphyrios of Athens

      Liked by 1 person

  3. brian says:

    Mario,

    I frequently hear this objection. It seems to be that often the force of the objection is that forgiveness is somehow a kind of Protestant imputation of innocence ala Luther’s snow-covered dung hills. Or as if the seriousness of life means you must be able to ultimately get it wrong, that you dualistically must have losers if there are to be actual winners. None of this is logically necessary.

    1) One still must deal with the question of whether God, who is a plenitude of infinite perfection, who contains in TriUnity a communion of love, so no other ad extra is needed to realize any kind of potential, would countenance an utterly gratuitous creation if the price were the annihilation or eternal frustration of any being? Would Goodness act in a way that seems to callously accept a horror that is in no way necessary insofar as creation is in no manner compelled of God?

    If one answers that God is free to do whatever he pleases, do you mean the arbitrary liberty of the voluntarist God for whom one may plausibly question whether God’s goodness is analogously aligned with our own notion of good? If not, if one grants that God’s Goodness indeed exceeds our limited participation and notions of the Good, but is not radically other, then the objection still holds that a Good God would not create if the cost was irreedemable loss.

    2) The nature of Agapeic giving is for the good of the Other. Hegel’s Absolute needs the creation to move from indeterminate Origin to a concrete Absolute. Aristotle’s self-sufficient Thought Thinking Itself remains serenely indifferent to finite others who imitate the Absolute as final cause. But the Christian God is intrinsically a plenitude of infinite Love. God glories in the the good of his creation. Readings of the Old Testament God that understand the jealousy of Yahweh as a conflict between the world and God, as if the world were the enemy of God and not the beloved object gifted into being and loved eternally is a deeply flawed theology that props up an idol, rather than expresses the intimacy of the transcendent God declared in creatio ex nihilo.

    3) The objection about the seriousness of life also tends to falsely equate person with modern individual. Hence, one fails to think the deepest sense of person, always already gifted in the intimacy of singular relation between the gifting of God and the unique person. This dimension is not touched or determined by individual choice. The root of the person is beyond and also within the affirmations or distortions of individual choice. Further, the archetype of personal being is Triune. Hence, one should recognize that relation is not a secondary, elective association which one may or may not choose. To be person is to be “always already” determined towards a community that includes all of being. You may think of the fates of individuals as compatible with radically separate destinies, but persons are not naturally atomized, isolated beings. On the contrary, person and the other are intimately and intrinsically linked. In short, it is the person who blithely consigns another to eternal hell or oblivion who lacks the more serious grasp of reality.

    4) Note that MacDonald does not argue for anything like a Lutheran forgiveness. Forgiveness is to return to the for-givenness that always precedes our efforts at self-determination. It is to be regifted with the calling from the Origin to be the unique singularity intended by God to contribute to the particular beauty desired by God from the Origin. Forgiveness is than not a forensic pronouncement, but an ontological calling. To realize forgiveness is to ultimately become at-one with the person desired by God and necessary for the beauty of the eternal community of the eschaton.

    5) What makes a charade of life is if anyone or anything “comes to nothing,” if God’s loving intentions are defeated. But Christ has won and God is victorious, even when this life troubles us with the seeming triumph of the vile and all manner of wickedness. The justice of God is not separate from his Mercy as his transcendence serves the intimacy of the intimate. Only those who do not grasp the sui generis of Christian metaphysics insist on postulating a dualistic opposition.

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    • Mario Stratta says:

      Origen’s apokatastasis (even for Satan, sheesh!) was condemned a long time ago, you know?

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      • Ahhhhh…..no, it wasn’t. Origen’s heresy was that in defining apokatastasis, he brought in elements that were heretical, such as the pre-existence of souls, and attached them to it. So apokatastasis was not condemned at all (and remains uncondemned in the Orthodox East) but rather Origen’s twisting of it.

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        • Mario Stratta says:

          So apokatastasis was not condemned at all (and remains uncondemned in the Orthodox East) …

          Yeah … that is one of the most serious problems of the “Orthodox East”.

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    • Dan says:

      “Luther’s snow covered dung hills.” Luther never used that that phrase.

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  4. God gave us freedom so that we could love him; he did not give us freedom so that we could damn ourselves

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    • Mario Stratta says:

      We are all going to be resurrected: EITHER to life everlasting, OR (NOT to “eternal damnation”, BUT) to being made aware of all we have said “no” to, and then annihilated (again, see Revelation 20 and 21)

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  5. Jonathan says:

    Divine love for each member of humanity explains the universality of the resurrection of the dead, why no one is annihilated, and why nothing good that is found in anyone is lost in the age to come. At the same time, St. Paul teaches, “Love does not insist on its own way” (1 Cor. 13:5 RSV), or, in DBH’s words, “love… does not seek for things of its own.” In other words, God doesn’t force His children to love Him, but leaves them free to define their own loves, even though He is most worthy of our love. Certainly both our weakness and our ignorance are mitigating factors for why some of us might love God less, and God takes that into account in judgment (Matt. 26:41, Luke 12:47-48, 23:34). But anyone who assumes that knowledge necessarily implies virtue should consider, contra Socrates, not only why Satan and his angels fell from grace, but also the Lord’s words in John 3:19-20. In this present age, our autonomy (regardless of our strength or knowledge) includes being able to sin and experience suffering from our own sins or the sins of others. In the age to come, thank God, no one will be able to sin or harm another. For those in love with God, this will mean eternal joy and an end to all suffering. For those who used their autonomy to shape their loves in a way that elevated love of self and sin above love of God and their neighbors, the inability to sin will be, to a varying degree depending on the person, a chain rather than a support, that is, a constraint and a source of sorrow. But this is no more evidence of torture from God than a rebellious child’s tantrum for not getting what s/he wants is evidence of parental torture. Whether the sorrow of the wicked after the Last Judgment could still be followed by their ultimate repentance is, at best, uncertain (cf. Ezekiel 33:11, 2 Cor 7:10, 1 Timothy 2:4, and 2 Peter 3:9, but see also Matt. 12:32, Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10; Mark 9:42-49; 1 John 5:16-17; and Revelation 20:14, 21:8). Our ignorance on this matter is probably best, so we are not slothful in repenting now and encouraging others to do the same (Matt. 3:2, 4:17; Mark 1:15, 2 Cor. 6:2), even as we pray for God’s mercy for both the living and the dead. The possibility that not everyone will share fully in the light of God in the age to come is of course disturbing when we love God and pray for everyone to experience the fullness of God’s life. But it may be that the beauty of eternity is found not only in the brilliant light of God and of His Saints’ never-ending growth in knowledge and goodness in conformity with Him, but also in the shadows that reveal the divine light by way of contrast. In the age to come, these shadows will not be places where danger lurks and sinners are active, but spaces formed by those who have chosen–knowingly and willingly–to be silent, non-participatory, and at the margins, rather than sing and dance in the center of the heavenly throng with the Saints. We know that God does not want to be worshiped by robots in this present age, and there is no reason to think that He wants to be worshiped by robots in the age to come. Whoever dances and sings in Heaven will do so willingly, and not because God pressures anyone to share in His energies. In their own ways, both the sheep and the goats will reveal the glory of God, and no one will accuse Him of being either unjust or unloving to anyone or anything that He has made.

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    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      A nicely worded comment, Jonathan, but it does not address Hart’s principal objections to everlasting hell but merely reiterates the traditional position.

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    • Ben W. says:

      Not to sound dismissive, but isn’t this precisely the conventional view that Hart totally takes to pieces in the Notre Dame lecture? Isn’t his whole point that it is incoherent, both from the perspective of creaturely freedom and from the perspective of divine goodness? I think you might want to go over the whole decision-theory argument he makes.

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      • Jonathan says:

        A problem I have with Hart’s definition of freedom is that, applied backwards to the fall of humans and of angels, it appears to deny that sin arose from genuine free will. “To see the good truly is to desire it insatiably; not to desire it is not to have known it, and so never to have been free to choose it” (DBH). I thought the Church teaches that Adam had free will in Paradise, although he did not yet have full knowledge of good and evil, and that even now we, despite the impairments of sin, mortality, and imperfect knowledge, have free will. Our choices may be foolish and ill-informed and spiritually harmful to us in both this age and the age to come, but we still have responsibility for them if they arise from our own will, although, as I said above, God takes our extent of ignorance into account.

        I don’t think the removal of creatures’ ignorance guarantees their choice of the good, because their preferences can still be contrary to God. “Woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short” (Rev. 12:12). I can imagine a well-informed, contrarian angel like Lucifer deciding that the pleasures of temporary autonomy and opposing God’s plans for humanity outweigh the longer-term pains of never-ending punishment. This is because I assume that eternal rewards and punishments–like perpetuities in finance–are discounted in proportion to how distant they are in the future. Thus a mild punishment applied over the length of eternity could be equivalent in severity to a major punishment applied once in the present. And the pleasure of immediate gratification through sinning could, for a rational being with a particular set of self-cultivated preferences, outweigh the future pain of a never-ending punishment, as long as that punishment were finite in intensity at each point in time. (I would expect, however, a rational creature to choose repentance at the last available moment if that allowed the creature to avoid never-ending punishment in the age to come.)

        Should we pray that God will save even the worst of sinners from suffering in either Hades or Gehenna? Yes, because, as St. Silouan the Athonite taught, love for others—including our worst enemies–would do no less. We should never dismiss others as a Pharisee might: “I thank Thee, O Lord, that I’m not like those sinners headed to eternal damnation who refuse to repent…” But I think it is spiritually unwise to assume that the salvation of everyone without exception is as certain as the sun rising tomorrow, because those are the sorts of near-certainties for which we rarely pray, labor, or shed tears. Rather than becoming complacent in the conviction that Gehenna is ultimately meaningless (which conviction would call into question some of the Lord’s own teaching), we would be wise to devote ourselves to repentance, intercession, and other works of love, knowing that God’s love is stronger than death. We should not assume anyone is beyond the possibility of salvation (which assumption would also inhibit our prayers), but we should “judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God” (1 Cor. 4:5).

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        • Ben W. says:

          The Church does not teach that Adam possessed *perfect* freedom, but that the path to perfect freedom (what Augustine called non posse peccare) lay open to him. Hart’s definition of freedom isn’t logically debatable anyway. Believe me, it’s been tried. You’re still assuming a modern understanding of freedom that doesn’t work logically and that isn’t necessary for the definition of true freedom. You’re really missing the point here. Remember, a free choice has to be one made compos mentis. By definition, every irrational motivation away from the good can only be the product of a failure of knowledge or sanity, and so isn’t free to that degree. So what’s freedom? It’s to become free of everything that would chain you to ignorance and distorted desire. You can’t be free until you will the good as the good.

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  6. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

    32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME
    .
    St. Matthew 12:31-32

    Why would Christ warn us about a state of perdition that He Himself will prevent from happening?

    “…in His Gospel the Lord Jesus Christ Himself mentions but one state of the human soul which unfailingly leads to perdition, i.e. blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:1-32). The Holy Spirit is, above all, the Spirit of Truth, as the Saviour loved to refer to Him. Accordingly, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Truth, conscious and persistent opposition to it. The same text makes it clear that even blasphemy against the Son of Man—i.e. the Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God Himself may be forgiven men, as it may be uttered in error or in ignorance and, subsequently may be covered by conversion and repentance (an example of such a converted and repentant blasphemer is the Apostle Paul. See Acts 26:11 and I Tim. 1:13.) If, however, a man opposes the Truth which he clearly apprehends by his reason and conscience, he becomes blind and commits spiritual suicide, for he thereby likens himself to the devil, who believes in God and dreads Him, yet hates, blasphemes, and opposes Him.

    Thus, man’s refusal to accept the Divine Truth and his opposition thereto makes him a son of damnation. Accordingly, in sending His disciples to preach, the Lord told them: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mk. 16:16), for the latter heard the Lord’s Truth and was called upon to accept it, yet refused, thereby inheriting the damnation of those who “believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (II Thes. 2:12).”

    Met. Philaret of New York (+1985)

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    • Ben W says:

      Yawwwwnnnnn…. I can quote bishops too, including ine from Nyssa with a better CV.

      The word is not “damned,” but “ judged.” Bad translation makes for bad theology.

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      • If the KJV is a “bad translation” then why do the Orthodox Hierarchs accept it and allow the laity to be continuously misinformed?

        And just so we both know where we stand, I don’t care for Dr. Hart’s latest book where he not only gives a *new* translation, but a *new* interpretation of capitalism that is, in my view, ridiculous. Dr. Hart seems to be saying that the Church has been in error for two milleniums but thankfully he has now discovered the “truth”.

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        • Ben W says:

          Um, what teaching of the Church for two millennia does Hart’s translation contradict? The Orthodox Church hasn’t been using the KJV for 2000 years. There isn’t anything about capitalism in Hart’s translation, so I can’t guess what you’ talking about. On wealth and poverty, Hart’s remarks in his intro seem to be in keeping with patristic tradition up till at leadt John Chrysostom. Otherwise he’s just quoting scripture. So what are you talking sbout?

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          • Though not erudite as you and having only the barest understanding of Greek, I’ve been told by my priest (OCA) that the KJV is the only English translation of the New Testament approved my SCOBA. Since SCOBA was dissolved in 2010 and succeeded by ACOBA perhaps this is no longer true, or that my priest (74 years young) was mistaken all along.

            I like David Bentley Hart and thoroughly enjoyed his book on Atheist Delusions. Being a rescuer and lover of abandoned canines I completely agree with his skewering of Edward Feser and other like Thomists here: https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/06/romans-81922

            (The prior article was in response to Feser’s attack on Dr. Hart for penning this article:
            https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/04/vinculum-magnum-entis )

            Nothing about capitalism?

            While I see that Fr. Farley is not popular on this Blog, unless the good Fr. is deliberately misrepresenting Dr. Hart’s book, I must agree with Fr. Lawrence.

            http://frlawrencefarley.blogspot.com/2017/10/the-deep-melancholy-of-david-bentley.html

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          • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

            Every liturgical church, Athanasius, authorizes approved translations of the Scriptures that are to be used in the Divine Liturgy and Daily Offices. This does not mean that the approved translation is the best translation in all respects and therefore beyond challenge. Translations are simply that, translations.

            Regarding David Hart’s translation, no one is suggesting that it be approved for use in the liturgical services of the Church. David has intentionally attempted a “literal” translation in accordance with a formal theory of translation. Where the Greek is ambiguous or open to multiple interpretations, he has given a translation that is also open to multiple interpretations. In other words, he has tried to avoid reading into the Greek text the dogmatic theology of the Church. I do not know if he has succeeded or not. I’m sure that his translation can be, and has been and will be, challenged by knowledgeable readers of the Greek. But it needs to be judged, I think, on its own terms.

            Personally, I welcome new translations of the Bible, as each may provide fresh insight into the written Word of God.

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        • Ben W. says:

          Lawrence Farley? Really? Come on. He’s not *deliberately* misrepresenting Hart’s translation. He’s misrepresenting it because he can’t follow a simple argument. I’m sure Farley is a very sincere guy, but he’s also one of those guys who doesn’t know how much he doesn’t know (and it’s a lot). You can do better.

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          • So Dr. Hart explicitely said that wealth is “EVIL” (read “Christ’s Rabble”), and you think Fr. Farley can’t understand “a simple argument”. Methinks you could use a dose of humility.

            If this is your attitude I’m done with any further attempt at conversation with you.

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          • Ben W. says:

            No, he says that in the New Testament great wealth is condemned as intrinsically evil. That’s just a statement of fact. And Farley still can’t follow a simple argument.

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        • Ben W. says:

          By the way, SCOBA uses the KJV because it happens to be one of the few translations based on the textus receptus, which means it is in keeping with the standard Byzantine Text. The truth is that almost all translations are the work of Protestants with a reformation era theological bias, or by Catholics with a counter-reformation age bias. At least DBH’s translation of Paul coheres with the traditions of the Greek fathers.

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    • Iain Lovejoy says:

      And if we are talking dodgy translations..
      1) “Not in this *age* or the *age* that is coming.”
      2) In Greek it is the sin that will not be passed over / forgotten, not the man who will not be forgiven. A sin against man or Jesus may simply be ignored; a sin against the holy spirit requires to be dealt with and corrected. Nothing in the passage requires that it be punished eternally.

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    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Robert, the interpretation of the biblical texts that cited by Met Philaret is difficult and challenging. The Metropolitan clearly believed that they support a traditional reading of eternal perdition. I would argue, on the other hand, that these texts should be read within a hermeneutic of Pascha. See my article “The Hermeneutics of Perdition.”

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  7. I sincerely hope that all of you are correct, especially since I fear for the state in which a parent and sibling departed this life. But I share the “traditional” interpretation that some human beings simply may never desire God more than the autonomy of self.

    So I repeat my question: Why would Christ warn us of the possibility of an everlasting state of spiritual ruin if He Himself would prevent it from happening?

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    • Ben W. says:

      You keep using the word “everlasting” as though that is the correct and uncontroversial reading of his words. But New Testament scholarship, not to mention the commentaries of certain great Greek fathers, calls that very much into question. The word aionios is n incredibly complicated thing. Christ used a lot of images of judgment, some of which seem to contradict one another of taken literally. Some of them are like the image of imprisonment and torture, which he uses but then describes as lasting only “until” the debt is exhausted. There aren’t any really good New Testament scholars who believe he used the term Gehenna just to mean the kind of place of everlasting torment later Christians believed in. The general consensus is that the language of the New Testament seems sometimes to threaten destruction and sometimes seems to threaten being cast out and sometimes seems to threaten a period of suffering. But all of it is metaphorical, and no good scholar believes you can sum it up in a simple doctrine of eternal hell.

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      • “No good scholar”. Thanks. That tells me all I need to know.
        Aionios cannot be divorced from the context in which it is used. If it does not mean everlasting then I fail to see how our life in the Kindom is everlasting.

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        • Ben W. says:

          Easy. The life of the Age to Come is eternal. That does not mean that the word “aionios” simply means “eternal,” even when it refers to a reality that includes eternal life. It doesn’t always refer to such things, however. It is used to refer to realities that are definitely limited in duration, like the fire that came from heaven to burn Sodom and Gomorrah in Jude 7 (where it just means “coming from heaven above the spheres”), or like the tents in Luke 16:9 (where it probably means tent that last a lifetime), or like the period of Onesimus’s association with Philemon 15 (where it also probably means “for life”), or like past times in Romans 15:25 (where it means “for a long time in the past but not any longer”).

          Do you know that there’s almost not a single instance of the word aionios being used to mean “temporally everlasting” in all the centuries leading up to the New Testament or in other texts of the first century? Even in Plato’s Timaeus, where it first appears, it doesn’t mean that (even if it’s mistranslated that way sometimes). So it’s not weird that good New Testament scholars don’t think it should be reduced to that meaning.

          If you haven’t read Hart’s postscript or his footnotes to his translation, then you should do so. It might clear the matter up. There’s also a good book by Ilaria Ramelli and someone else (can’t recall the name) on the history of the word aionios.

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          • Ben W. says:

            Remember too, in the Septuagint, which is the basis of biblical terms in koine, aionios usually means something other than “everlasting.”

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        • Ben W. says:

          1 Corinthians 3:12-15 might be an explanation of the nature of the aeonian punishment from Matthew 25.

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        • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

          Now that the thread has moved into the semantic range of the Greek word aionios, you may find the following article helpful to better understand what Ben is talking about: “Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever.” Personally, I don’t think that the question of eternal punishment can be resolved by linguistic considerations alone. Sometimes a writer, particularly within the patristic period, can intend aionios to mean eternal. Each passage must be contextually analyzed. For me personally, I keep coming back to the hermeneutic of Pascha. Who is the God whom we confess and what has he accomplished in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ?

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    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Why did Jesus warn us of the aeonic punishment, i.e., the eschatological consequences of rejection of God? Two reasons come to mind: (1) because the consequences are terrible and (2) to call his hearers to radical conversion to him.

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  8. Tom says:

    Except for mistakenly reducing “libertarian” to post-Englightenment notions of “free will” as neutral or absolute unconditioned volition (which no libertarian I know advocates for), I agree! 😀

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  9. I don’t think that more classical understandings of freedom necessarily result in universal salvation. (In fact, I find it a bit odd that someone of Dr. Hart’s patristic learning seems to tout such a view.) It seems to me that a creature could have complete knowledge of God and yet reject him. (Isn’t this essentially what happened to the Devil?) Love isn’t a matter of intellect. It’s a kind of commitment, one that appears to be possible to reject.

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    • Ben W. says:

      “It seems to me that a creature could have complete knowledge of God and yet reject him.”

      Obviously not.

      To quote a friend’s recordings from an old seminar of Dr. Hart’s: “To have complete knowledge of God would mean a) perfectly rational understanding of b) God as the sole infinite good that is the proper end of all rational desire. To have “a” also entails c) a will to know the good without illusion. If that’s all true (and it is), then you could not both truly know and freely reject God. That would not be rational freedom, but slavery to irrational impulses (which by definition cannot be free). Here a+b+c=total willing love of God.”

      So, assuming that there is a devil, and that he fell (I’m willing to believe it), he didn’t have complete knowledge of God, and he too needs to be saved from his slavery to ignorance.

      You know, a lot of philosophical ink has been spilled on these matters. And Dr. Hart’s view is still the one that doesn’t fall apart at the level of simple logic. Thomas Talbott is good on these things and easy to follow.

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  10. Fr Aidan Kimel says:

    Just a reminder to all commenters: Please keep your comments civil and charitable. Thanks!

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  11. Robert Fortuin says:

    There are other points to consider which demonstrate the problematic incoherence of Infernalism, briefly summarized:

    – the ghastly incommensurability between finite transgression and infinite punishment
    – the nonsense of evil’s nonbeing persisting infinitely into eternity
    – the absurd infinitely indissoluble dualism of evil vs. God
    – the consequent need to assign bizarre reinterpretations to Christ’s ‘victory’ over evil and death; to the nature of ‘the good’ of the Good News; to divine ‘mercy’ and ‘forgiveness’, to come to mean their opposites.

    One could go on.

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