The Inescapable Love of God: Hell Lite

I think it is is accurate to say that over the past 100 years the free-will theodicy has become the go-to defense of the doctrine of hell. Its popularity crosses ecclesial boundaries. Even Baptists (maybe not many but some) can be heard invoking it. With one fell swoop, God has been removed as judge, jury, and prison warden from the eschatological picture. His retributive punishment of the wicked has been quietly retired. How often have you heard one or more of the following statements:

  • God does not condemn; he only confirms our definitive choice for hell.
  • God does not damn; we damn ourselves.
  • God never ceases to love the damned; the gates of hell are locked from the inside.
  • God does not inflict perditional suffering; we bring it upon ourselves through our obdurate impenitence.

If someone were to pipe up and say, “Fr Aidan, I have heard you say all of the above many times,” they would be absolutely correct. This is what I taught in the parishes I pastored.

The free will defense of hell was popularized in the 20th century by C. S. Lewis in his books The Problem of Pain and The Great Divorce.1 It is difficult to know when to date its initial appearance in the theological tradition. Nicholas Loudovikos names St Maximus the Confessor and St John of Damascus as early proponents of this model; but further docu­mentation and analysis is needed. Within the Latin Church, the retributive construal of damnation held doctrinal sway for over a millennium and a half. As far as I’m aware, Catholic and Protestant theologians only began to advance the free-will defense in the 20th century.

Even so, the free-will defense has one glaring vulnerability—the interminable suffering of the reprobate. Even if is true that they bring it upon themselves, the fact remains that God is responsible for keeping them in existence in this condition. Would not annihilation be morally preferable? We shoot horses, don’t we? Catholic theologian Paul Giffiths has proposed a free-will version of annihilation or decreation as a substitute for the doctrine of everlasting perdition:

Sin, the averting of sinners by their own actions from the LORD’s loving face, has nothing whatever to do with the LORD. It is an absence, a horror, a grasp at nothing that succeeds in moving the graspers toward what they seek. The LORD has nothing to do with the privation that sinners seek. He cannot. He is the LORD who spoke the beautiful cosmos into being out of nothing, and his causal involvement with attempts to return it to nothing is and must be exactly zero. For the LORD to inflict pain, eternally or temporally, upon nothing-seekers, would be for him to recognize an absence as a presence, and to respond to it as if it were something. The pain that we suffer is always the result either of the damage to which the fall subjected the cosmos, or of the particular sins we commit in that devastated cosmos. The LORD does not punish us, if that means inflicting pain on us in retribution for the wrongs we have done. The only sense in which he can be said to punish us is that we, because we are damaged and sinful, may find his caress painful. But such pain is epiphenomenal to love, and has the presence of damage (the presence of an absence) as its necessary condition. The LORD, therefore, does not and cannot intend the infliction of pain, and has no causal implication with its occurrence. Pain is, without remainder, the felt component of an absence being reduced by presence. What the LORD does is enter into and pass through the absence by incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection, thus remaking the cosmos away from the absence introduced into it by sin, and toward the harmony of ordered beauty. The doctrine of the harrowing of hell, implicit already in the Apostles’ Creed and one of the earliest scenes to find representation in Christian art, can stand as a symbolic representation of this view: the LORD makes and remakes; he does not unmake, and the infliction of pain as punishment would be to contribute to unmaking. An objector who wishes to defend the necessity of the LORD’s agency in pain-producing punishment for those who attempt to unmake themselves is insufficiently serious about what it means to say that the LORD is creator and redeemer, and therefore all too likely to make of him a local idol engaged in a cosmic battle with dark forces. Better, altogether more Christian, to say that the only thing the LORD does for sinners is remake them (by baptism, by killing the fatted calf to return their substance to them) when and whenever they ask, and that the only thing sinners can do for themselves is unmaking. Necce est quod anima deo deserta in nihilum cadet, we might say; and since the LORD does not change, remove himself, punish, or condemn to hell, this must occur as a result of the sinner damaging himself sufficiently that the LORD no longer sustains him—and can no longer sustain him without refusing his freedom to seek the end he prefers, even if that end is nothing.2

Most free-will theorists have yet to embrace the annihilationist option, whether for biblical or dogmatic reasons; but one thing I have noticed is that some now downplay the suffer­ings of the damned. Maybe it’s not as bad as the tradition has long presented it.

In response Thomas Talbott offers the following proposition:

3) “The free will theist’s understanding of hell is, in any case, utterly inconsistent with the New Testament teaching about hell.”3

Thomas Talbott suggests that the free will theodicy of hell is inconsistent with the New Testament’s terrifying imagery of Gehenna in two ways.

First, the biblical imagery argues against the suggestion that eternal perdition is a freely-embraced condition. Eschatological condemnation is typically presented as a judgment by God of sinful deeds, and for some, this judgment will come as a complete surprise: “‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? (Matt 25:37-38). Yet if the judgment comes as a surprise, then it can hardly be described as an outcome chosen and accepted by the condemned. Moreover, Gehenna is presented as a place of intolerable suffering and anguish: “The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth” (Matt 13:41-42)—not a condition one might freely and irrevocably choose. Equally clearly, the rich man in Jesus’ parable hardly displays a preference for his condition. He begs Father Abraham to warn his five brothers, lest they too find themselves in that “place of torment” (Lk 16:19-31). One might argue that the rich man had fair warning of the consequences of his neglect of the poor and homeless, but having now experienced those consequences, he is desirous of being delivered from them. His attitude may not count as genuine repentance—not yet—but perhaps, like Ebenezer Scrooge, he would avail himself of a second chance if given the opportunity. “Indeed,” writes Talbott, “insofar as the whole point of the New Testament imagery is to provide a warning and a motive for repentance in the present, it makes little sense to suggest that some people might prefer a hellish condition over a heavenly one.”4

Second, whereas Scripture presents Gehenna as a place of intolerable suffering, the advocates of the free will model often seek to minimize the suffering of the damned. That they do so is understandable, for the more intense the suffering, the more incompre­hen­sible the eternal rejection of God becomes. Philosopher Jerry Walls, for example, speculates that “those in hell may be almost happy, and this may explain why they insist on staying there. They do not, of course, experience even a shred of genuine happiness. But perhaps they experience a certain perverse sense of satisfaction, a distorted sort of pleasure.”5

Walls’s suggestion strikes me as initially plausible. I imagine that we have all experienced this kind of degenerate self-satisfaction. Talbott rightly notes, however, that the biblical image of torment excludes all such pleasure. Perhaps the Lucifer of John Milton’s imagination initially thought he would find the experience of ruling hell superior to service in heaven, yet as the poem unfolds, his despair grows and intensifies:

Be then his Love accurst, since love or hate, To me alike, it deals eternal woe. Nay curs’d be thou; since against his thy will Chose freely what it now so justly rues. Me miserable! which way shall I flie Infinite wrauth, and infinite despaire? Which way I flie is Hell; my self am Hell; And in the lowest deep a lower deep Still threatning to devour me opens wide, To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heav’n.6

Does Lucifer come close to repentance? Milton cannot entertain this possibility.

Walls acknowledges that the “happiness” of hell is ultimately based on self-deception. The damned have convinced themselves that their infernal satisfactions must be greater than whatever joys heaven offers. “They must take some corrupt pleasure,” he reflects, “in choosing evil because it is evil. Perhaps such a choice represents the epitome of self-assertion and independence from moral norms. Maybe it gives an illusion of complete autonomy that no other sort of choice does. It is admittedly hard to conceive of such a choice, but if real perversity is an option for free persons, it must be possible to see some advantage in choosing evil because it is evil.”6 But is it really possible to choose evil because it is evil?

In his pride and egoism, Milton’s Lucifer thought he could choose evil for the sake of evil (“All good to me is lost;/Evil, be thou my Good”); but this declared intent only reflects the depth of his delusion. What happens when all creaturely goods are withdrawn from the damned and they find themselves deprived of all sources of pleasure, including the pleasure of tormenting others? What happens when they are abandoned to the outer darkness in the anguish that must inevitably deepen and intensify? Here is the fatal vulnerability of Walls’s position, however we understand the psychology of demonic beings. He acknowledges that it is not within the power of human beings “to endure ever-increasing misery. We do not have the constitutional strength or capacity to absorb ever greater amounts of torment.”7 As the CIA operative in Zero, Dark Thirty says when he is torturing a detainee: “In the end, everyone breaks. It’s biology.” So why do the damned not break? Because God will not allow their suffering to reach the critical point. “To be sure,” Walls explains, “if God added such pressure, the person would be forced to see that sin causes misery and would find it impossible not to submit to the pressure. But the choice to submit under these circumstances would not qualify as a free choice.”8

In other words, God steps in to prevent the person from achieving salvific insight, and he does so out of ostensible respect for the libertarian integrity of the person. Like the lawyer who always walks through the door just at the moment when his client is about to buckle under the pressure of police interrogation and confess his crime, so God intervenes to protect the damned from the full consequences of their sin, thereby interrupting the process of illusion-demolition and thus allowing them to do irreparable harm to them­selves and to all who love them. How is this authentic respect for freedom? How is this love? Alcoholic Anonymous insists that every alcoholic must hit bottom before he will be ready to begin the road to recovery, yet apparently Walls envisions God as inhibiting the disintegrating spiral precisely to prevent the sinner from ever reaching his bottom. At this point the moral and theological power of the universalist position becomes evident:

We can appreciate, of course, why many free will theists would reject the barbaric picture of an eternal torture chamber in which no repentance and no escape from unbearable suffering is even possible. For an eternity of such suffering would seem utterly pointless, and a “god” who would actually inflict such suffering on someone forever would be unspeakably barbaric, even demonic. But here, I would suggest, the universalists are in a far better position to accept the images and language of the New Testament than are the Arminians and other free will theists. For the universalists can regard the misery of hell as both an inevitable consequence of sin and as a means of correction for it; that is, precisely because they reject the idea of a freely embraced condition, they have no need to water down the New Testament image of unbearable suffering.9

Might it just be possible that Gehenna is God’s last resort to reconcile humanity to himself?

(5 March 2015; rev.)

Footnotes

[1] For a succinct presentation of the basic models of damnation, see Thomas Talbott, “Heaven and Hell in Christian Thought,” Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

[2] Paul J. Griffiths, Decreation (2014), pp. 211-212. Also see his essay “Self-Annihilation or Damnation,” Pro Ecclesia XVI (2007): 416-444. For a fascinating dialogue between Griffiths and five scholars, see the 2015 Syndicate Symposium on Decreation. Also see my article “Damning to Nothingness.” Cf. Eleonore Stump, “Dante’s Hell, Aquinas’s Moral Theory, and the Love of God,” Canadian Journal of Philosophy, 16/2, (June 1986): 181-198. Following Thomas Aquinas, Stump argues that the gift of being overrides the suffering of the damned. Because of the metaphysical identification of being and goodness, it would be wrong for God to annihilate them. God’s only good and loving choice is to sequester them to prevent them from doing harm to the innocent and give them a place to act and will in accordance with their vicious nature. Stump elides the fact that for both Aquinas and Dante, hell is a place of retributive punishment and is therefore an expression of justice, not mercy. For this reason the Blessed do not pity the reprobate in their torment.

[3] Thomas Talbott, The Inescapable Love of God, 2nd ed. (2014), p. 171.

[4] Ibid., p. 182. Contra infernalist exegesis, Talbott does not believe that Jesus intended to teach everlasting damnation in the parable of the rich man or his references to Gehenna.

[5] Jerry Walls, Hell: The Logic of Damnation (1992), p. 126.

[6] John Milton, Paradise Lost, book IV.

[7] Walls, p. 133.

[8] Ibid., p. 132. In his book Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory (2015), Walls rejects the traditional claim that the damned are incapable of repentance as a purely arbitrary assertion. He thus leaves open the possibility of post-mortem conversion (chap. 8). See my article “Repenting of Hell.”

[9] Talbott, p. 183.

(Go to “Gehennic Christ”)

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35 Responses to The Inescapable Love of God: Hell Lite

  1. Hugh says:

    Why call the intermediary stage “hell” rather than “purgatory.” Hell seems inevitably linked to eternal conscious torment.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Only because for infernalists “hell” designates the condition of ECT, and that is the view against which Dr Talbott is writing.

      Like

  2. Seth S. says:

    Loved this one!

    Like

  3. brian says:

    I sort of don’t mind Pollyanna in hell . . .

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Fr. JD, OP says:

    The ‘free will’ defense of hell goes back much further than Damascene – Irenaeus appeals to it, as does Athanasius, Nazianzen, and many others. Plantinga appeals to passages from Augustine as the basis for his well-known argument. All that is necessary for such a defense is the claim that hell results from God’s desire to cause creatures to have free will, such that the goods God aims at in giving human beings morally significant free will cannot be achieved without the possibility of mortal sin (and the possibility of persisting in that sin forever, i.e., hell), but that God permits such failures because the goods achieved defeat that badness which results.

    If the free will defense were successfully shown to comport with Scripture and orthodox teaching on hell, it seems as if you are admitting that it would be successful tout court.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Calvin says:

      That doesn’t even begin to make sense with any coherent definition of “goods” or “free will”, let alone the actual predestinarian beliefs that you yourself have declared that you hold.

      Like

    • Tom Talbott says:

      “Plantinga appeals to passages from Augustine as the basis for his well-known argument”—i.e., his well-known Free Will Defense.

      That is not only misleading, James; it is just false. Plantinga quotes Augustine in an effort to draw a contrast between Augustine’s conception of a free will theodicy and Plantinga’s own conception of a free will defense. Nothing in the passages he quotes is even relevant to Plantinga’s own positive argument; much less does anything there serve “as the basis for” his own argument. I know of no place, moreover, where Plantinga defends even the possibility of an eternal hell; and in personal conversations I had with him a few decades ago, he seemed to reject the very idea that the loving God of the Bible would permit any loved one to remain in hell forever.

      I would recommend, therefore, that you not cite Plantinga in a context that seems to distort his own views so badly.

      -Tom

      Liked by 4 people

    • alexpern says:

      Hilary of Poitiers also implicitly appeals to a “free will” defense in De Trinitate, when speaking of the sonship to which John refers in John 1:

      “…this sonship to God is not a compulsion but a possibility, for, while the Divine gift is offered to all, it is no heredity inevitably imprinted but a prize awarded to willing choice.”

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      • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

        It’s not the affirmation of free will that qualifies a position as belonging to the free-will defense of hell–all Christians affirm that–it’s the rejection of divine retribution.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Alyosha says:

          Can universalists accept divine retribution? (I mean, obviously they can, but is there some conflict here?)

          Apologies if this has been treated elsewhere.

          Like

          • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

            I suppose they could and no doubt some do, but historically a rejection of divine retributive punishment as incompatible with the character of God appears to have gone hand-in-hand with rejection of hell and profession of the greater hope.

            Liked by 1 person

      • DBH says:

        That quotation is entirely irrelevant to the issue.

        Like

    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Fr JD, while I am skeptical of your claim that the free will defense of hell can be found in Irenaeus, Athanasius, and Nazianzus, I’d like to keep an open mind. Please provide the quotations, along with any secondary sources which support your interpretation.

      Here’s why I’m skeptical:

      1) It’s not at all clear that Irenaeus believed in everlasting damnation. Many scholars read him as an annihilationist. In any case, for Irenaeus to be included as a supporter of the free-will defense, we need from him a clear repudiation of divine retributive punishment.

      2) Regarding Athanasius and Gregory Nazianzen, I suppose it’s possible that they can be shown to have believed in eternal damnation, but I’m dubious. Both were deep and sympathetic readers of Origen, especially GN. Like Clement before him, Origen rejected retribution as unworthy of God, and I would not be surprised if Athanasius and Gregory followed him in this. Many scholars believe that GN was a universalist or at least sympathetic to the greater hope. As far as Athanasius, it’s by no means easy to confidently identify his convictions on hell, but Ramelli has noted that his theology points in a universalist direction.

      All Christians believed in free will. In the patristic period they stressed it over against pagan fatalism. So it’s insufficient to simply provide affirmations of free will. Free will is perfectly compatible with and necessary to the punishment model of hell. The free-will theodicy of hell requires (1) affirmation of hell’s eternality, (2) assertion that damnation has been freely chosen, and (3) assertion of the impossibility of post-mortem repentance.

      Liked by 2 people

  5. Tom says:

    Fr Rooney: …hell results from God’s desire to cause creatures to have free will, such that the goods God aims at in giving human beings morally significant free will cannot be achieved without the possibility of mortal sin (and the possibility of persisting in that sin forever, i.e., hell), but that God permits such failures because the goods achieved defeat that badness which results.

    Tom: This is ground zero of this debate, James. You keep insisting that permitting the possibility of persisting in hell forever is all but obviously logically possible and morally acceptable, that there is some good that makes the permitting of eternal suffering morally intelligible. Universalists disagree. They’ve offered their reasons. You disagree. Fine.

    To everyone: Can we move on? The back-and-forth over the same, repeated arguments, as if we suppose that if we can just repeat our claim one more time and reach 100 mentions of it, the coin will drop in the slot and the other side will ‘get it’ it. It’s not gonna happen, not in this lifetime anyway.

    I’m gonna continue to come here because I love it (!), but it is becoming a bit tiresome. Fr Rooney hasn’t added a single novel thought – not a single new argument – not present in previous reviews and published objections, and we didn’t go on and on about any of those previous reviews/objections. Why now? And previous reviewers all made arguments that were tighter and more consistent from start to finish. James’s entire case is, on the whole, the weakest articulation to come along. Why are universalists parking themselves here? (This question is actually more interesting to me than where the conversation with Fr Rooney is going.) It seems like universalists want a showdown where they can ‘have it out’ and ‘move on’. Is that it?

    Tom

    Liked by 2 people

    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Haha. Not to worry, Tom. The flavor of the month always changes. One just needs to be patient.

      Liked by 2 people

      • DBH says:

        Yeah but what’s the flavor of fish in a barrel? I admit that Rooney saves everyone the bother of having to construct a straw man. His arguments are so bad and so logically confused, however, that it would be convenient to encourage him to go on and on. But surely it’s clear by now that he has given all he’s got to give.

        Liked by 2 people

    • njada2 says:

      That’s a great question Tom. I’m thinking recently: wow, what a wonderful thing I’ve reached the point that I can say with conviction that eternal damnation is not a possibility. But am I going to congratulate myself for realizing that something so obviously morally wicked is morally wicked?

      What will universalist Christians do with this baseline realization now? I’m kind of mentally readjusting this last year as I’ve stopped forcing myself to formally hold this one thing that never made sense to me as if it was a revealed truth, and to start building the habit of expecting the best from my heavenly Father. I want it to change me from my heart, so I don’t know yet what that will look like. I don’t want to just prove that universalism is true, but I want to build off of that truth and all the truths that flow from it; and I want people to build /with/, to be the best Christians we can be.

      Is this a deeper dividing line than being Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant? It feels like it is – as if we didn’t notice this difference in spirit because we didn’t ask the question head-on – but I’ve not been one to just disregard tradition. I owe so much to my Catholic philosophy education. I could never see how eternal hell fit into any other part of what I learned, so I don’t even feel like I’ve abandoned much of any of it, although I feel a bit freer to branch out. So I don’t want to pretend it’s more complicated or uncertain than it is; I want to see what are the fruits of apokatastasis Christianity. Jesus came to reconcile the world to God.

      Liked by 1 person

      • A Sinner says:

        I’ve been thinking the same thing. I no longer need to read another book or article or see additional patristic evidence or hear more philosophical or moral argumentation to further convince me of something I already know to be true. Because of Jesus Christ, all shall be well! This I believe! Now comes the hard part of living my faith in confidence and love rather than fear. “Miss no single opportunity of making some small sacrifice, here by a smiling look, there by a kindly word; always doing the smallest right and doing it all for love,” St Therese of Lisieux says. “Let us love, since that is what our hearts were made for.” How often do I judge others, or allow my self-centeredness to prevent me from doing what I ought, or wonder whether God is really as good as I believe Him to be? All the time…

        “When you know how much God is in love with you, then you can only live your life radiating that love. Keep the joy of being loved by God in your heart as your strength and share this joy with others.” – Mother Teresa

        Have mercy on me, Lord, and grant that I may be the person you created me to be.

        Liked by 2 people

        • Stranger says:

          Sorry, meant also to say that while I remain allergic to behavioral or dogmatic requirements being imposed on me by others, I have found that the more I read about and understand the Great Hope, the more I desire to change who I am as a person and how I regard and treat others.

          I would be interested to know if you’ve considered a bare minimum of beliefs to constitute a core of (required?) along the lines you describe above, i.e. to join or be recognized by a universalist community such as you describe above.

          Like

          • Alyosha says:

            There’s no need to limit ourselves to only one approach, I am just being a bit gloomy, and I also don’t know what I am talking about. I have no problem working with, say, Arians to promote greater acceptance of universal reconciliation, and I would be very much opposed to the creation of a sectarian universalist denomination with its own dogmatic distinctives. But there’s just a limit to the sort of fellowship I could comfortably have with an Arian or Socinian, and there’s a limit to the kind of church counseling and discipline you can have when you suffer deep disagreements about anthropology. And I think it would be unfortunate if any such organization were to cause people to leave a traditional denomination or negatively affect their participation in it.

            Liked by 1 person

      • Tom says:

        NJada and Sinner,

        I appreciate both your comments. I’m in pretty much the same place. There’s no ‘unseeing’ things now.

        I’m always open to hearing a person’s sincere (which I assume includes Fr Rooney) and non-judgmental (which doesn’t include Fr Rooney) objections, since I once passionately defended infernalism using the same arguments Rooney is using, though I never considered universalists to be heretics.

        I think it was St. Isaac of Nineveh who said: “Those who have seen the truth are not zealous for the truth.” I don’t have the context in which he said this, but it wouldn’t be hard to guess. There’s a peace of mind that attends one who has seen the truth, a peace undisturbed by objections and naysaying, and in the case where the truth in question is the destiny of all, the peace is all the more grand. I’ve never settled into a view of the end that brought more rest to my mind and emotions, which was also biblical, and which has enjoyed supporters (albeit a minority for most of history) within the Christian tradition.

        I wish Fr Rooney well, but the ‘well’ I wish him is on the other side of what (was for me and) will be for him a deliciously sweet but painful awakening.

        Anyhow, if the infernalists who have thus far responded to TASBS are paying attention, and if they’re truly concerned about strengthening their case, they may want to ask Fr Rooney to cease engaging this debate since he’s only weakening and complicating their overall case.

        Tom

        Liked by 2 people

        • Robert Fortuin says:

          Fr Rooney is in a difficult place Tom – his church has dogmatically spoken on the matter. Even for those not dogmatically bound – many of them hold out on believing in the restoration of all on the notion that, “we can’t know the mind of God” on these matters. An arresting and irrational agnosticism takes hold. The subject is essentially sidestepped. I find myself doing the sidestepping, for different reasons – I don’t want get into arguments and be that guy who courts controversy, stirs the pot and what not.

          Liked by 1 person

      • Robert F says:

        Yes, what we need is a spirituality shaped by the community (across confessional and ecclesial boundaries) of all those who believe and affirm that in Christ all — all — are and will be saved. And this community should exist to support each other — and all believers and persons — in the practices and life that flow out of such belief. It’s an inextricable part of the Gospel, the Good News, to announce this liberating truth, and to live in a way that embodies it in the Church (and churches) and the world.

        Liked by 3 people

        • Alyosha says:

          You mean like this? https://christianuniversalist.org/

          The problem, I think, is well-illustrated by their confession of faith, which lacks any mention of the Trinity. Without some body of practices and a coherent vision of the world, Christianity and universalism become mere data points and take the backseat to political advocacy, which is inherently divisive. Everyone goes their own way because they disagree on the behavioral restrictions that are appropriate to the (universalist) Christian life.

          Mainline churches seem to be failing because they are not entirely sure why they exist. DBH made the point somewhere or other that a religious community (at least, one with inter-ethnic pretensions) without some strong dogmatic commitments will simply fall apart. The best we can do, I think, is to form a kind of Universalist Conspiracy, infiltrating and subverting various Christian denominations with the goal of making apokatastasis mainstream. Our goal should be to make a disciple of David Bentley Hart the Ecumenical Patriarch and, while we’re at it, the Pope.

          Am I joking? Good question.

          Like

          • Robert F says:

            I understand how unrealistic it is to expect and hope for what I was talking about in my comment. I have weak moments when I actually think institutions can be changed from within by those committed to a vision. The truth is that institutions are changed, and changed in the most significant ways, by forces that originate outside institutional boundaries, and crash the gates meant to keep them outside. For the most part, individuals are changed in the same way. At one time, near the beginning, Christianity was a force that swept into ancient institutions and societies as an external force; now the churches are mostly buffeted about by winds external to themselves. While I understand the need for a strong dogmatic core, I still feel as if many of those external winds that have buffeted the churches about, and forced a way in, were necessary and beneficial in humanizing Christian institutions that had become inhuman, and they did and do this mostly by chastening and humbling the power, but even more the pride, that so easily seems to grip religious institutions.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Robert F says:

            Fyi, I’m a mainline Christian, floating mostly between the Episcopal and Lutheran denominations, following my wife, who is a church musician, between one job and another. I can still confess the ecumenical creeds from that position, along with other congregants, and participate in the Eucharist, profess faith in the Incarnation, Passion, Resurrection, and Ascension of Christ, and look forward to his Parousia and Eschaton. It’s not ideal, but after making a decision, for a mix of good and bad reason, to leave the Roman Catholic Church as a young adult, that’s where I found myself. That’s where I’ll likely remain until my death, doing my best to trust that God can reach and save even one as imperfect as me in the midst of equally imperfect religious institutions, institutions that are dying by rapidly accelerating fatal attrition, just as I am.

            Like

          • Robert F says:

            The other thing that modernity, if rightly received, would have taught the institutional Church (churches) is a sober epistemological modesty, a modesty which, rightly received, humbles any institutional “vision of the world.”

            Liked by 1 person

          • Stranger says:

            I am no advocate or apologist for the website cited or organization behind it. I remember reading it when researching universalism online several months back. While the “confession of faith” (“Our Beliefs”?) may indeed lack an explicit reference to the Trinity (which, if Im not mistaken, the New Testament also lacks), the “Learn More” link under the section titled “God” on the “Our Beliefs” page does lead to a description of all three persons in the Trinity: https://christianuniversalist.org/beliefs/who-is-god/

            Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to the excellent discussion your comment initiated. My background makes me still allergic to behavioral restrictions imposed on me by other/s (other fallible people), especially in the name of preserving doctrinal purity and dogmatic compliance, but I do find your idea of making the case for universalism from inside existing structures to be very intriguing, as I do thr counterpoint regarding change from without, below. Thank you for the comment.

            Like

    • Robert Fortuin says:

      Tom, I’ve checked out a while ago on this Rooney episode. He does keep coming back so I don’t fault anyone from engaging him.

      Liked by 1 person

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