Necessity and Possibility in God

by Roman Montero

This post will engage with what I consider an extremely difficult topic, so what will follow are at best my tentative thoughts on this issue as far as I able to make them. My hope is that this might at least encourage readers to continue thinking about this issue in a way that does not reduce it to simple dichotomies (as is sometimes the temptation), and in a way that allows for the full breadth of its mystery and depth.

Gotfreid Leibniz famously declared that this world was the best of all possible worlds, a claim that seems to follow nicely from his principle of sufficient reason. A more recent use of possible world’s talk in theology is Alvin Plantinga’s ontological argument for God’s existence, which appeals to God as a necessary being and his relationship to possible worlds. There are two similarities that I want to highlight from these claims:

  1. They both rely on modal reasoning, reasoning around necessity and possibility in discussions of God in himself (for Leibniz, in his act of creation, for Plantinga, in his existence).
  2. They both seem to myself, and many others, extremely suspect.

Leibniz’s argument seems to fly in the face of our phenomenal experience, and although it is true that we are finite creatures and can never have the widest perspective necessary to see the whole context of every event, the experience and phenomenon of real suffering is so powerful that it often seems to rule out even the possibility justification from any larger context. Plantinga’s argument has the bizarre consequence of maintaining that a world in which God does not exist is not a logically possible world, even a world in which nothing at all exists; since had the existence of such a world been possible, God’s existence would be impossible.

I want to claim that this kind of modal reasoning breaks down when we get to theology proper—attempting to speak of God in himself—and especially when speaking of God sans his relation to creation. One reason for this is that God is himself the ground of any and all metaphysical possibilities and necessities. That is not to say that logical impossibility is logically posterior to God, but that any possibility for anything to be actual is grounded in God, and that God’s willing is sufficient to necessitate it. Given that there is no logical reason prior to God’s will compelling God’s will one way or the other, God’s willing cannot be said to have been able to be otherwise than what he willed, since there is no state of affairs that could have been different such that God’s will would be different outside of God’s will itself.

When we think of finite wills, such as our own, we can understand possibility in terms of the rational relations making up our reasons for choosing things, and the state of affairs that make certain things possible and certain things impossible, and what it would take to actualize those possibilities. It is possible that I will have a quesadilla for lunch next week. The reason that this is possible (not just as a logical possibility but as a true potential) is that there are criteria which would make it the case that I would likely choose to have a quesadilla for lunch, and criteria that would make it not the case. Even if I don’t know what those criteria are, I know that there is a possible state of affairs that would make my choice actual and a possible state that would make a contrary choice actual. In that sense, it is possible that I eat a quesadilla for lunch. This is the case for agential possibilities as well as non-agential possibilities. Possibilities depend on states of affairs in which a possibility could be actual. This need not mean that my choice is necessitated by a specific state of affairs. It might be that in the same state of affairs I choose not to eat a quesadilla whereas I could have chosen to; nevertheless, the possibility of the choice depends on certain states of affairs being actual, such as there being tortillas and cheese available.

When it comes to God, however, God sans creation, things get tricky. The theologian who perhaps understood this the best was Dionysus the (pseudo) Areopagite. The Areopagite in The Divine Names, chapter 5 (on being), insists that God, being the creator of all being, is itself pre-existent, pre-being, not a particular being among beings, but that by which all beings subsist. This God is not a type of being—in that he does not participate in being—but rather, being participates in him. This is not to say that God is non-being, nor to say that God is the highest being, but that all distinctions of beings and modes of being, and as such are posterior to God.1 In his Mystical Theology, the Areopagite highlights what I take to be a dialectical approach to God in himself. He lists some negations that are largely the denial of lack: God is not inexistent, lifeless, speechless, mindless; he is not material, embodied, and so on.2 He then, in a sense, negates those negations: God is not a soul or a mind, he is not speech, he is not a substance. He exists neither within the category of nonbeing nor being.3 The point here is that whatever we grasp from our position as finite creatures making sense of a finite world, God can neither be identified with anything we can grasp nor can that which we grasp be denied to him. Positive affirmations of God are analogical affirmations only, which are made by denying the univocal affirmations. The Areopagite writes:

We make assertions and denials of what is next to it, but never of it, for it is both beyond every assertion, being the perfect and unique cause of all things, and, by virtue of its preeminently simple and absolute nature, free of every limitation, beyond every limitation; it is also beyond every denial.4

The reasoning here is precisely the logic of creation ex nihilo, because God is the cause of all that is, he is not bound by anything that is in and of himself, and any determinations are posterior to God and thus not of God in himself. Given this, can we speak of possibility when it comes to God in himself, prior to creation? What state of affairs could come about? What state of affairs could not come about? What state of affairs could not fail to come about? None of these questions can be really engaged in the way we engage with states of affairs in creation: states of affairs and their possibilities are determined by their finitude and their being conditioned by other states of affairs. God in and of himself is determined by nothing. His act of creation is not conditioned by anything other than his will. God’s will is not conditioned by anything but … God’s will. Any knowledge of God, any speaking of God and God’s possibilities is, as the Areopagite writes, of what is next to it; in other words, we can speak of God insofar as creation is related to him. In this sense, and this sense alone, we can speak of possible worlds, we can conceive of other states of affairs that could have been actualized, not because of any knowledge of the absolute, the ground of reality, but by our grasping of creation, the distinc­tions of creation and the distinctions of finite conceptual reality (such as that of mathematics). Through grasping those dis­tinc­tions and abstracting from them, we can imagine virtual worlds in which the relations of the world are different. However, creation is created by God, the distinctions of finite conceptual reality are determined by their finitude, and all finitude is posterior to the infinite: any essence of a thing, including finite concepts, are what they are only because of their relations, their relations being ultimately with things whose essences are also determined by their relations, the whole picture being determined by the absolute, the infinite horizon.5

To put it in Hegelian terms, all Dasein is determined by its negation (which is contained within its determination but distinct from it), but this negation is itself determined in the very same way, it is being-for-another just as much as it is being-in-itself.6 In fact, to be something in itself (to be being-for itself), to be a particular existent, something must be being-for-another, it must be posited as negation, otherwise it would be a mere abstrac­tion. This is to say that to be something is to be finite, and alterable, being something is being ‘being’ that is limited and in relation to the other.7 As Hegel sees it, pure being is itself indistinguishable from pure nothingness, and nothing but an abstraction, so when it is thought it collapses into becoming, of which Dasein results, as that which becomes.8

Therefore, given this model, any state of affairs by which modal reasoning can apply can only be in the realm of Hegel’s Dasein, the realm of becoming, existence determined by its negation, being-for-another. This is because all possible worlds are possible world of some conceivable alteration, some variation of relation. To say something is necessary is to say that some determinate thing, in all its determinate relations, holds in every possible world; to say something is possible is to say that the relations that determine that something, that make it something, could hold or could not, to say something is impossible is to say that the relations necessary to determine that something cannot hold in any possible world.

I submit that when speaking of God in himself, God sans-creation, modal reasoning just cannot apply, and I believe that when speaking of God sans-creation, the Dionysian method may be the most appropriate.

However, modal reasoning cannot apply to the act of creation either. This is because the act of creation is the relation between God in himself and the world of existent determi­nate being, the world of finite being, and the possibility and necessity distinction depends on the distinctions of finite being, conditioned being, whereas the God/word relation is the relation between the unconditioned, and the conditioned.

One may say that the possible worlds are merely virtual, merely concepts in the mind of God; so although God is not a finite being, why couldn’t he consider virtual or conceptual possible worlds and then pick one to actualize? The problem is that the exercise of picking out a possible world—and therefore picking out what is necessary, possible, and impos­si­ble—depends on these possibilities and necessities and impossibilities being independent of the exercise itself. For God, any conceptual possible world is not, in fact, possible outside of God willing it to be, the state of affairs in which anything is possible is the act of creation. Therefore, any state of affairs that God does not will is impossible, yet it would be not impossible had he created it. The only laws that one might posit as governing God will would be the fundamental laws of logic: God cannot create a square circle, yet logical impossibilities are relations between determinate concepts, squareness and circleness, and any instantiation of one or the other can only be possible insofar as God wills it. So even the laws of logic themselves depend on certain relations, conceptual relations perhaps, but determinate relations nonetheless. Given that, laws of logic can only really be applied to God’s will a posteriori; in other words, given creation one might say that God could not have made a square circle, but that is only once the conceptual distinctions on which the laws of logic depend on are, in fact, distinguished. In this sense one might imagine Dionysius the Areopagite saying that God is beyond logic but not illogical, that God is hyper-logic, and hypo-logic, that logic participates in God, but not vice-versa.

When describing the act of creation, Thomas Aquinas points out that God created some­thing from nothing is due to his being pure actuality, not something with potency such that it could be actualized by another; therefore, God’s action of creation, for Thomas, is not one in which a prior principle, or cause, or reason actualizes a potency, but it is truly from nothing. For Thomas, it was ‘logically’ possible, in that it did not entail a contradic­tion, but it was not some potency in God to be actualized.9 Lack of contradiction might make something possible in a sense, but something’s ‘possibility’ is the possibility of a state of affairs being actualized, which in the case of God in his act of creation, is entirely dependent on God and cannot be actualized by something other than God himself.

So, what can we say about God in himself and his relation to creation? In my article “God as Love: In Creation,” I touch on that issue a little bit. My basic contention is the category of possibility cannot apply to God in himself and his relation to creation, but the category of love can. Does not John tell us in his first epistle that God is Love (1 John 4:8, 16)? Therefore, should we not expect a phenomenology of Love to give us something about God in himself and his relation to creation. Modern philosophical treatments of love, for example by Alain Badiou and Slavoj Zizek, have challenged the idea that love can be neatly put into a category of something which is chosen as one possibility and something which is necessitated, which is imposed, Badiou writes:

After all, love takes place in the world. It is an event that can’t be predicted or calculated in terms of the world’s laws. Nothing enables one to prear­range the encounter—not even Meetic, and all those long, preparatory chats!: in the end, the moment you see each other in the flesh, you see each other, and that’s that, and it’s out of control! However, love cannot be reduced to the first encounter, because it is a construction.10

To make a declaration of love is to move on from the event-encounter to embark on a construction of truth. The chance nature of the encounter morphs into the assumption of a beginning. And often what starts there lasts so long, is so charged with novelty and experience of the world that in retrospect it doesn’t seem at all random and contingent, as it appeared initially, but almost a necessity. That is how chance is curbed: the absolute contingency of the encounter with someone I didn’t know finally takes on the appearance of destiny. The declaration of love marks the transition from chance to destiny, and that’s why it is so perilous and so burdened with a kind of horrifying stage fright.11

If “I love you” is always, in most respects, the heralding of “I will always love you”, it is in effect locking chance into the framework of eternity. We shouldn’t be afraid of words. The locking in of chance is an anticipation of eternity. And to an extent, every love states that it is eternal: it is assumed within the declaration. The problem then resides in inscribing this eternity within time. Because, basically, that is what love is: a declaration of eternity to be fulfilled or unfurled as best it can be within time: eternity descended into time.12

What makes this interesting is there is a contingent encounter which retrospectively seems necessary. Slavoj Zizek makes a similar point writing:

If I am directly ordered to love a woman, it is clear that this does not work; in a way, love must be free. But on the other hand, if I proceed as if I really have a free choice, if I start to look around and say to myself ‘Let’s choose which of these women I will fall in love with’, it is clear that this also does not work, that it is not ‘real love’. The paradox of love is that it is a free choice, but a choice which never arrives in the present—it is always already made. At a certain moment, I can only state retroactively that I’ve already chosen.13

The points here that I want to highlight are that love is both experienced as a contingent encounter and a free choice (just like coming across two cups of water and picking one up over the other), yet it is also experienced as a kind of necessity, the love is locked into necessity, it is experienced as permanent and even ‘eternal,’ it in fact defines who you are such that it is experienced as something like ‘destiny.’ It also differs from any other free choice, because although it is free in the sense that no one did, or could, impose it on you, it was still never ‘chosen’ in the sense of a deliberation and conscious decision, it is a true event, one without precedence, one which could not be predicted. It is both chosen and constructed, and an unprecedented event that one encounters. Here the clean distinctions between possibility and necessity become blurred, was it possible for you not to fall in love with your beloved given the encounter? Could you have chosen otherwise? Was it not necessitated by the encounter?

Nevertheless, in this case we still have a contingent event which is prior to love, perhaps the love itself blurs the lines of necessity and possibility, but the encounter that enables it does not. God has no encounter prior to creation, God did not ‘fall’ in love, like we do. Perhaps the reality of love is not conditioned in the encounter—in other words, nothing in the encounter necessitates love, but it cannot be said to have been any way else given the encounter—but the encounter is itself conditioned, and that encounter is a condition for the event of love.

Can one have an event, a kind of event like love, that transcends possibility and necessity? freedom and determination? One source as a possible way to engage this issue is the 19th century dialectical idealist philosopher (and theologian, I would say) Friedrich Von Schelling.

Schelling’s Philosophical Investigations into the Essence of Human Freedom contains an attempt to engage with God’s freedom in creation. For Schelling, God is grounded in himself, that ground however, is pure undifferentiated and eternal will, God as actual is this will directed towards an another. Schelling puts, this directed will is ‘pure unity’ and ‘pure understanding.’ Gud thus becomes God through his willing the other. The ground precedes God but is only real insofar as God actualizes it in his actuality, the ground and God as actual presuppose one another and do not exist without each other. This other willed by God is itself grounded in the ‘ground’ of God, and actualized by God’s desire for this other, but this other, being grounded in pure will is free, free to move towards God as actual, or not. God as actual for Schelling, is therefore the very act of God relating to the other through love, that other being actualized by God out of God’s own ground as the finite objects of God’s love, through which God himself is actualized as the absolute actualization of his ground.14

In this sense, for Schelling, God becomes actual in his desire to relate to another, God as actual is God in his desire for the other, his love. This cannot be a choosing of pre-existent possibilities, but these possibilities are God himself, but they only are possibilities insofar as God actualizes the object of understanding in creation. Here we see a similar paradox as we saw earlier in the discussion of love. The ‘event’ of creation is not God choosing between possibilities, but it is what actualizes God as God. The possibilities, the pure potency of God’s ground is not a set of options for God, but God’s own ground, and these possibilities are only real possibilities retrospectively, since only God as actual, God as the lover of the other, could have realized them. Just like the lover finds himself already in love, yet that love is absolutely free chosen, just like the contingency of the event of love in the encounter become retrospectively necessary (in that the encounter could not have failed to result in love), God—given this schema—is both prior to creation yet actualized by creation. God freely brings creation out of his undifferentiated will, but this undifferen­tiated will is itself only real insofar as God actualizes it into a directed will.

This kind of dialectical approach allows us to talk about God as the ground of all possibility and necessity, yet also as that which actualizes possibility and necessity. This is because the act of God’s creation actualizes God himself which is the pre-condition of the ground of all possibility and necessity. This may seem like circular reasoning, and in a sense, it is. Does this mean that God does not exist without creation? Not necessarily, God may only exist as God actualized in creation, and God actualized may be grounded in God’s pure will which only exists insofar as God is actualized. One may want to say, as I do, that beyond God’s actualization in creation, one can posit—with Pseudo-Dionysius—a God which cannot be predicated or abstracted from, a God which is beyond being. If we go with this model this absolutely apophatic God beyond the actualization of creation is inaccessible to us. The God we know is that very God, but that God as creator, the dynamic relational God who is Love as both our ground and as our actualization, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.

 

Footnotes

[1] Pseudo-Dionysius, The Divine Names, 5.

[2] Pseudo-Dionysius, The Mystical Theology, 4.

[3] Pseudo-Dionysius, The Mystical Theology, 5.

[4] Pseudo-Dionysius, The Mystical Theology, 5.

[5] See Pannenberg, Metaphysics and the Idea of God, 103–105; 160–168. 

[6] Hegel, The Encyclopedia Logic, §91.

[7] Hegel, The Encyclopedia Logic, §92.

[8] Hegel, The Encyclopedia Logic, §89.

[9] Thomas Aquinas, Questiones Disputatae de Potentia, 3.1–3.

[10] Badiou, In Praise of Love, 31.

[11] Badiou, In Praise of Love, 42–43.

[12] Badiou, In Praise of Love, 47.

[13] Zizek, The Sublime Object of Ideology, 187.

[14] Schelling, Philosophical Investigations, 17–19; 27–32.

* * *

Roman A. Montero is the author of  All Things in Common: The Economic Practices of the Early Christians and Jesus’s Manifesto: The Sermon on the Plain.

This entry was posted in Philosophical Theology and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

85 Responses to Necessity and Possibility in God

  1. Robert Fortuin says:

    It cannot be that God, as fully actualized Actus Purus, actualizes in creation, in the creative act, or actualizes at all, full stop (even “fully actualized Actus Purus”, is strictly speaking, incorrect – there’s no actualization, no arrival to perfection, in God at all). It is creation that is actualized, and that is all the actualizing that occurs. But aside of this, even if we were to suppose it, I don’t see it to be of help at all to suppose God’s actualization, as one is mucking around in the wrong mode of things, obfuscating matters and further complicating things in regards to possibility and necessity. It is in the final account of things simply a category mistake to suppose possibility, necessity, actualization, etc. for God.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Roman says:

      If one wants to take on Thomas Aquinas’s metaphysics on completely sure, I don’t though. I have issues with it, largely from with theodicy, I also think the insights from German idealism ought not to be ignored.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Robert, here’s how I interpret (or perhaps misinterpret) Roman’s wording: If we think about this along Dionysian lines, then there is a sense in which we can speak of God as being actualized in the act of creation, because “before” creation (God sans creation), God is literally “no thing.” And that is why I would say that modal logic fails when speaking of God in himself. It’s a category mistake.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Roman says:

        Thanks correct, couldn’t have said it better myself.

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      • Robert Fortuin says:

        What sense may that be though? What “before” can we truly suppose in the divine life?

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        • Roman says:

          In the sense that creation is contingent and thus posterior (metaphysically, not temporally) to God’s will to create.

          Of course our language will break down at that point, at least used univocally.

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        • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

          I think the point, Robert, is that the “before” (God sans creation) cannot be thought. God in himself transcends all categories. We can’t even speak of him analogically (here I may be disagreeing with Roman), given that analogy presupposes finite realities from which we may analogize. Consider this radical passage from Eriugena:

          How, therefore, can the divine nature understand of itself what it is, seeing that it is nothing (nihil)? For it surpasses everything that is, since it is not even being but all being derives from it, and by virtue of its excellence it is supereminent over every essence and every substance…. So God does not know of Himself what He is because He is not a ‘what’ (quid), being in everything incomprehensible to Himself and every intellect…. He does not recognize himself as being something. Therefore He does not know that He is a ‘what,’ because He recognizes that He is none at all of the things which are known in something, and about which it can be said or understood what they are.

          Think of God-before-creation as akin to the Big Bang singularity in which the laws of physics break down and no longer obtain. Does that make sense?

          For whatever reasons, analytic philosophers resist this apophatic language-breaks-down moment. They still want to apply their modal logic God in himself–hence their modal collapse argument.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Does it make sense to talk about God ‘before’ at all? It’s like trying to talk about God the Father ‘before’ God the Son—sure, the Son is logically subsequent to the Father, but to say ‘before’ feels like it strikes a bit too mythological, as there really is no ‘before’ here.

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          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Eriugena is in error or perhaps misunderstood out of context, but be it as it may ignorance of any kind cannot be ascribed to God who is all knowing. To say God doesn’t know himself because he is lacking “quiddity” is just nonsense, projecting the constraints of creaturely finitude to Actus Purus.

            My intuition is that there is no meaningful difference between God before and after creation – metaphysically, ontologically, temporally, logically. A distinction cannot be made without lapsing into category error. There is then no distinction between the Exitus and Reditus, the going forth is also the return. The beginning is the end. Creation is Incarnation is redemption. The Triune God simply is the God who speaks, who creates, who redeems, who is the All in all.

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          • John H says:

            Agreed Robert. God cannot be ignorant of anything as that would imply that He needs the world to know Himself, which would make God in some sense dependent upon creation. Hence that cannot be Eriugena’s meaning. God does not know Himself in any fashion that we can understand or name, even analogically. Thus to say that He does not know Himself is , for Eriugena, to affirm that He knows all things supereminently in His simplicity, which is beyond being.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Robert Fortuin says:

            John – supereminent knowledge can never be ignorance, a “not knowing”, a “not comprehending.” God knows everything and himself supereminently: this is what to know means, and this is the very opposite of ignorance. This is the problem in general with thinking of apophasis as negative rather than a knowledge by way negation. Huge difference. Apophasis is the negation of univocal predication, not negation of real similarity: knowing can never become ignorance, nor light darkness.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            I was just about to say the same thing, John H. The “unknowing knowing” or “divine ignorance,” if you like the neo-platonic language means that in fact, he knows all that is. In unknowing, it is paradoxically true that it is true knowledge because God already knows he is not anything created. In itself, it is no-thing. So yes, in a sense by creating, He does come to “know” himself, but also, this is just the self discovery that reaffirms what is already fully known by Him, which is that this other is not other than God is in God’s self. As Eriugena suggests in book II, “For by knowing He makes, and by making he knows.” And this act of ignorance, exposes the real truth of the “plus quam,” the more than. He’s just getting around Aristotle’s self thinking thought in the end.

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          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Fr Aidan/John H/Logan –

            I am not saying anything new here by insisting on a perfect coincidence of desire and possession in God. This has to temper any talk of discovery, becoming, actualization, change, etc. Sorry to have to take the wind out of your sails 🙂

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          • Roman says:

            It seems to me to claim God knows himself perfectly can obviously not be univocal with creaturely self-knoweldge (which is always knoweldge through the other), if it’s analogical what is the analogical sense? What does that even mean sans creation?

            I’m not read up on Eriugena, so I can’t speak on his point of view, but it seems to me that knowledge is always relational, even self knoweldge. So if God all there is to be known sans creation, as Logan says with creation he knows he is not a creature, and thus has knowledge of self that is analogous to our self konwledge (Hegel makes similar points).

            As to there being no metaphysical difference between God before creation and God after creation, I can’t personally see how that can be true (I mean wouldn’t even cambridge changes be a meataphysical difference?); I won’t ge into it here right now, but it seems to me this gives us major problems with theodicy, there are other issues I have with it as well (biblical, and metaphysical) but I’m not sure I want to get into that rabbit hole right now.

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          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Roman,

            What perfect knowledge means is that God does not need to create to know that He is not a creature. Perfect knowledge also means that God does not require analogy to come to understand. Perfect knowledge also means that God’s knowledge doesn’t change (come to know, acquire, learn, observe, experience, and so forth). So in the context of your query here, this means that it makes no sense to suppose a before and after of creation for it wouldn’t matter in any case as God’s knowledge remains unchanged.

            Again, we are dealing here with a very basic category mistake. Let’s not make God in our image.

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          • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

            Eriugena’s point is really quite simple, though expressed provocatively. God does not know himself as a something because he is not a something, i.e., he is not a finite being: he has no determinate boundaries (except in Christ) that would distinguish him from somethings. If not a something, then, he is a no thing or nothing. Obviously, Eriugena is not attributing ignorance to God. He knows himself as the infinite beyond being that he is.

            Of as DBH puts it, “God is not ‘the other’ of anything.”

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          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Fr Aidan,

            On that reading Eriugena can’t be marshalled to further notions of self-discovery and actualization of God. Those terms will have to be qualified so drastically to lose their meaning and become nonsense – and this is why I prefer rather to think of the divine being-in-it-self in terms not of lack which points to a need for discovery, knowledge, actualization, etc., but rather to that of an “over-flowing abundancy” an excess of perfection, which is itself the perfect coincidence of desire and possession in God. If we want to speak in terms of lack in God the only way to approach this is by way of “negation of privation” – God is not evil, because He is the good; God does not change, because He is perfectly actualized; God does not have parts because He is one; and so forth. In this way then necessity and possibility are category mistakes which cannot be applied to He who is the I AM.

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          • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

            Good point. I may have unwarrantedly assimilated Eriugena to Dionysius. But I think that the divine “nothingness” obtains for Dionysius. 😎

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          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            Not to be too semantic and subtle, I think you mean being-for-itself. If not, then you’ve made God no different that the Kantian idea of being, and now we are becoming circular because you’re still facing Heidegger’s ontotheological problem. One cannot think being as God, for then it the edifice crumbles.

            Being-for-itself, as I think my guy Berdyaev proves, can be what you delineate but also still be beyond.

            And Fr. Kimel, don’t let him bully you into rotating notions on Eriugena. If anyone reallllyyyy was leaning into PD it was him. Lol

            Like

          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            Excuse my cellphone typos lol

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          • Roman says:

            Robert, I know the line your taking, I don’t see how this does not turn into either modal collapse, or equivocation when it comes to the use of the term “knowledge.”

            I mean what you’re saying assumes all kinds of neo-platonic/aristotilean metaphysics which I don’t necessarily take on uncritically.

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          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Roman, would you unpack that? I don’t see how this would lead to collapse of modes or equivocation. How do you understand that?

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          • Roman says:

            Sorry for not being concrete Robert, let me try again.

            Lets say God’s knowledge is the same sans creation as it is with creation.

            Then it seems to me that if creation IS an object of knowledge for God, in the sense of it’s actuality and potentiality along with it’s essencial contingency on God, then any world sans creation would invovle a different object of knowledge, it might be that God knows all possibilities of combinations of actualizationg and potency, since he is purely actual (given Thomistic metaphysics, which I don’t fully accept), but he also knows that there is no world of the combination of actuality and potency which is being actualized by him, as opposed to if it was the case that there was a world of the combination of actuality and potency which is being actualized by him.

            To me this is modal collapse, if God’s knowledge cannot change AT ALL, then it seems to me the only way to maintain this is to say there is no sense in which God COULD be sans creation, or could have been sans creation.

            If one says that I am using knoweldge in an insufficiently analogical way, I wonder how this wouldn’t collapse into equivocation.

            But I’m also open to the idea that I just need to read more Thomas.

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          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Roman the modal collapse does not obtain because God does not require change in creation (nor himself) in order to know – which is unlike us of course because our mode of knowing proper to the our mode is by participation, in degrees more or less, over time, and as such we change in coming to know this or that object). But to God creation is not an object, nor is it something that He participates (comes to participate) in, nor does his state of knowing require a change in order to know it. In knowing Himself He knows it fully, already, without a “coming to know”. Creation is not an object to God, an object that came about in God’s time line of being (such as objects are to us – my children for instance or an oak tree) and this is precisely why there is no sense in which God could be without creation. For the creature this would entail a modal collapse, for we do require a discovery in order to come to know. To say that I was never without my children is nonsense, why so? Without an object to know we cannot come to participate in it; we require it to come about this or that way so we can come to know about it. But not so for God for He already knows how it will come about this or that way – there’s no future, no process of coming to learn, no acquisition of knowledge. And in this way we cannot speak about God without creation for there was never a time God didn’t know about creation and there was never a time that God chose to create and there was never a time God was without creation. Emanation, properly understood, is for that reason a more accurate term to use that creation.

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          • Roman says:

            I see, so in this sense you are embracing emanationism (I suppose this would be straight up Ibn Sina type emanationism).

            So, it seems to me that one need not say there was a “time,” as in a metric moment (or more) in which God was without creation, to say that creation depends on God’s will, and that there is nothing essential to God that makes it such that God could not have willed a different world or no world at all.

            In this sense I want to talk about God without creation.

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          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Right, and we can explore “God sans creation” – none of what I have said is meant to foreclose on enquiry. It is just meant to set some important caveats, goal posts or rules of engagement if you will, that in my estimation following a traditional Christian perspective, are absolutely crucial in order to theologize coherently. It does bring be back to the question – what about God sans creation that in your view provides insight into the question of necessity and possibility?

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          • Roman says:

            Ok, so the problem is, I believe, that perhaps me and you do not agree on what the starting point of theology proper ought to be. For example, I do not rule out a dialectical/dynamic God, who interacts with his creation such that he is, in a sense, determined by it.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Hi Roman,

            That is correct, that is a radical point of departure in our understanding of God.
            I can see now why God without creation is a concern for you, as this means for you “God without determination.”

            Liked by 1 person

          • Roman says:

            It’s not so much a problem, as I think the way pseudo-Dionysius talks about God is precisely appropriate in terms of God without determination. But my understanding of creation ex-nihilo implies that one can talk about God sans creation, even if only in the Dionysian mode.

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          • Yes of course for Ps Dionysius God is always without determination and I agree with him. This is precisely what I have affirmed; but to be more precise, determination as applied to God is a category mistake. The only “determination” is God’s own will – He is perfectly free to be who He is, and so this makes determination wholly inappropriate and inapplicable to God.

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          • Roman says:

            That is certainly true, so I take on Ps. Dionysius erratically. The reason for this is what I take to be the fact of creation ex-nihilo. As far as I can tell, to be free to be who he is is precisely to self-determine.

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          • I have to confess I fail to understand what you mean. This is certainly my shortcoming.

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        • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

          Roman,

          I think this is where you will find a mediated position once you look more into Eriugena, and an area that has been some solace for me in balancing out the perspectives as I understand them, and while we swim in similar seas, has provided the ability to accept the Hegelian notion of contradiction as actuality, and then understanding the limit of overcoming that position in terms of moving beyond a”cardinal contradiction” as Sushkhov calls it, into a clearly established limit that won’t be overcome because it is a final moment.

          For Eriugena, who is totally emanationist, the exitus is kataphatic and actualizes, yet the reditus is apophatic in that it moves from the unknowing into a known actuality (language, knowledge, appearance) back into the unkowing, silence, and concealment of the divine essence in the final return [Carabine, JSE, p.94]. So all contradiction that is manifested in being, is the tension of appearances and perspective. It is both adding to and yet reducing. It is both knowing and known. It is both free and necessary. It binds totality into the whole, and yet sets it free.

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    • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

      You know who is really helpful here and is making a roaring comeback? Eriugena. He is the only one, from what I’ve read, who can have the classical delineations with the insights of the unified whole, yet also have the necessary insights of Idealism from the subjective side, and still maintain things in their proper mode. Even more than Maximus, I think Eriugena anticipates all of Aquinas as well as truly can be the one to stare a hole into the forehead of Hegel/Schelling. It isn’t a mistake to suppose God’s actualization at all. God’s becoming is intimately tied to the creative realization of being as he lies beyond it and as the no-thing, can become all things. So any self actualization is entirely proper to the divine life, in fact, one could argue it’s the point..the mystery tremendum so to speak. Eriugena makes that point explicitly.

      The cardinal contradiction ceases to exist within the divine life because non-being isn’t seen as privation to him, but merely nothing in the extreme form of apophatic thought. The ineffable light that appears as darkness for which we cannot speak. So God, being in all things, in a sense becoming all things and yet those things not being God, is still actualization. It is the final “theophany” in a sense, when God shall fully be “all in all.” The mind, in its effort to understand creates the tension of appearances and the journey of division and resolution, according to someone like Carabine “echoes the rhythm of creation itself” even. And since the Word generates those things, to the point of even becoming one with the pinnacle of those things I think we have to see some actualization in the end.That seems to be obvious to me. It’s much like a jigsaw puzzle you have drawn all the pieces of, put them together, and yet you are not it. It is an actualization of yourself, and yet it isn’t you.

      So while God is uncreated, he is in a sense by grounding reality and yet being beyond it, also creating a portion of Himself, as nothing can exist outside of Him.

      I will say also that Marion’s “Aquinas and On-to-theology” essay does raise the peculiar point that maybe even Aquinas was not quite what we surmise in regards to his stance on the truly transcendent and falls along more Neo-Platonic lines. I have my own issues with the article, which I’m going to write about elsewhere, but Eriguena is the tie that can bind a lot of our conversations. He isn’t a pantheist or heretic anymore than the likes of Origen et al.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Robert Fortuin says:

        I reject all notions of God becoming, actualization, perfecting and such, as false moves, category mistakes which can not, by definition, pertain to God who is, and whose existence is simple. God never was without creating and without creation, nothing is perfecting or changing him.

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        • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

          You’re absolutely correct, my man. No-thing is perfecting what is already perfect and bringing it forth to be. Nothing is changing, but actualizing/concretizing, and that’s the point. Especially for those of us, and we agree here, who see teleological ends working out as they do universally. It isn’t a category error but a phenomenological event. And you can’t reject all notions of God becoming anything….for if you do, then you’d reject the premise of God becoming man, which I know you don’t. His existence is very simple, but in its ineffability the ability to even speak of its simplicity defies the logic/language of the simple. And that is where the beauty of Eriugena comes in…even in the order of primordial causation it starts with Goodness-through-itself, Being-through-itself, and Life-through-itself, followed by the other causations.

          And for what its worth, I know its a Psalm, but Psalm 109/110:3 is a good reference here for the discussion on beginnings. “In the beginning, in the day of your power, in sacred splendors before the daystar in the womb, I begot you.” One could really look at the peculiar expression that this yields for even pointing to the eternal causation of the Son, especially as it gets used for the reference to Melchizedek later. Regardless of its context, it is pointing to these kind of moments that we are discussing. Temporality isn’t necessarily the main priority for a beginning. It need not even apply.

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          • ‘Actualization’ is necessarily a becoming, which implies a sequence of events, which implies some flavour of temporality.

            God does ‘become man,’ but God qua God does not change in the slightest—there is no becoming in God Himself, no change or ‘actualization’ in Him in the Incarnation. The Lord is, to nod vaguely at Balthasar, the concrete analogia entis —Jesus Christ is ‘perfectly clear’ to the Logos, and thus immediately is both fully human and fully Divine, with no confusion or separation thereof. God is not transmogrified into a man; rather, the veil is lifted, and God shines into the world as a true Man so that the rest of the cosmos might be made transparent to the Light (which is to say to be divinized). At no time does God qua God change in the slightest. It makes no sense, however, to talk about ‘before’ the Incarnation with respect to God Himself, just as it makes no sense to talk about ‘before’ Creation; such a relation is not well defined, as God, ontologically preceding spacetime, is not a being therein. Only with respect to this fallen spacetime may we talk about ‘before’ and ‘after’ the Incarnation—but the Logos is ever and always incarnate, especially in the deified worlds which always already are.

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          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            It is a becoming, you’re right, but if we take both the claims and the logic of it, then since all things are “for Him, in Him, through Him, and because of Him,” then they are actualized as a “piece” of Him because they are concrete things He creates/wills. There isn’t a way around that, and yet they are not the fullness of Him as he lies beyond the actualizations and for that matter, nothing can exist outside of Him, so any actualization must also be a part of Him and this allows for the fullness of teleological purpose. It is inherently mysterious for that very fact and defies the depths of the human comprehension in se.

            All actualization is, essentially, is the phenomenological appearance upon the horizon of Being itself. It’s the “concretizing”
            (aka becoming/actualizing/soldifying) of a freely creative act. There need not be some temporality per se, for that defies the very logic of Creatio ex Deo (the proper nihilo). What becomes has no prior becoming unless it becomes within the manifold of the Logos as logoi, correct?

            As far as the Incarnation, that is not what the actual doctrinal definition suggests. To even use HUvB, and what I just mentioned above, any “concrete”, example becomes in existence as a literal thing. As an example of a “personified” analogy, as a concretized moment would still inherently become that very thing or it would lose its ability to be the reified analogical thing. And how you have phrased it, doesn’t align with the logic of Chalcedon. He is fully man, he cannot not be anything other, so literally, he is that very thing, he becomes that, is that, and will die as such. So he is the literal actual becoming of God as Man, he must actualize and does so in time, while yet the idea of Him doing so, occurs before time (1 Peter), and yet is also fully God. He is intrinsically both via the perichoretic “synthesis” as such within that very hypostatic mode, and that very uniqueness is what makes him the True Man as such, but he doesn’t lose either his actualized body/emotions, or his Deity, they are synthesized and yet distinct. The view you are pushing kind of betrays Scripture and the Fathers. The way you are describing it, while trying to maintain a fullness of both, actually pulls you closer to a monophysite understanding of it than the actual fullness of the understanding it. So while he is not “transmogrfied” he is very much fully that thing, which means he actualizes, and becomes.

            And further, we talk about God before the Incarnation all the time in regards to theophanies. How else do we make sense of the OT “appearances” of God the Son appearing to man at say, Sinai, or countless other examples. In fact, many would argue that the very “humanized” theophanies the Patriarchs, Moses, et al experience, are the very thing to clue us into what would be coming in the actualized person of Christ, a foreshadowing of type. The only phenomenological difference is that in one, appearance is merely an appearance of type, versus in one, the other is an actualization of type. So I don’t understand how you can’t not talk about God before the Incarnation, to fully understand Him, after the Incarnation?

            Liked by 1 person

          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Logan it is sloppy to speak of synthesis and becoming. God doesn’t become man, you know better than that. God “enhypostatizes” human nature, but remains God unchanged. The Incarnation does not change God whatsoever, this is the cornerstone of Chalcedon. And OT theophanies before the Incarnation, well that is plain and simple pointing to their manifestation prior in time, this in no way can be made to indicate a prior to the incarnation in the sense of the atemporal divinity.

            So no, there’s no changing, no actualization, no becoming; but God eternally creating, eternally redeeming.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Robert F says:

            Robert Fortuin: So no, there’s no changing, no actualization, no becoming; but God eternally creating, eternally redeeming.

            And eternally both human and God? I have come to think that the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world must, in addition to eternally being the slain Lamb, also eternally be both human and God.

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          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Robert, at any rate we cannot get around the enhypostization as a concrete, historical event at a certain place and a certain time. So that has to be stressed when speaking of the Son as eternally both human and God, as otherwise it invalidates the historicity of the incarnation, and invalidates his humanity. If he were eternally incarnate, i.e. Jesus of Nazareth, then why would he have to be born from a certain mother in a certain place, at all? Could have just appeared out of the clouds. And such an appearance would make him….inhuman, super human – and render the historical event of the incarnation as utterly superfluous. The distinction between the eternal existence of God and existence in time cannot be a contrasting opposition, but rather as distinct yet complimentary, a “yes and also” without undermining the reality of either. So yes, with that in mind, I do think that it is impossible to conceive of the Son as anyone other than the Son of the Father who becomes the Son of Mary. I believe that to be who he is eternally, and who the trinity is eternally – eternally creating, eternally redeeming. I surmise that this is a crucial dimension of the meaning of divine immutability: that the Son of the Father is unchanged when he becomes the son of Mary. The birth of the human Jesus does not create a new person in addition to the Son of the Father. The human Jesus is the Son of the Father, one and the same Person. It is this Person that is eternally the Son of the Father. He is never no other than the Son who creates and redeems. So in that sense I would say that we can say the Son is eternally both human and God.

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          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            I don’t think it’s sloppy at all. I don’t see how “becoming” or “actualizing” what you’ve always intended to be as the maker and ground of all things, indicates a change? If it’s always been within the actual divine life to become fully both things, then it is actually improper to assume a “change” occurs at all? It is merely a becoming of actuality.
            I’m not suggesting an ontic change, because I don’t see the godhead as being bound by being/pure act in the way you view it. I see it through a perspective shift of the unified whole from which all things come and return. They aren’t changing at all, but merely dividing and resolving as intended. You mentioned exit and return, but what are the implications of that? Division and Resolution. We don’t see that as a change in God, and yet they are the very facts that being possesses and become from God’s own Word as it’s brought forth, and in a sense, do actualize. So God is in all things, and yet he will not be those things in the end, and yet, there is that phenomenological tension that things do shift and change, etc when logically viewed.

            This also may need to be understood as the epistemological tension of appearance/being/etc versus the ontological definition as such and what it means to say is versus become.

            I do agree that language breaks down, and if you notice I said a perichoretic synthesis. Which by definition says it isn’t a mixture but an intersecting of two fully real realities that seemingly become one and yet are not. So they are synthetic in function, but not in type. At least if I understand perichoresis properly.

            Eriugena’s logic on all this, is the logical end of what he sees both the Nyssen and Maximus implying. My larger concern, is that we don’t take the human side of this very seriously, which betrays the fullness of the story as well as disconnects the creative act from its fullest perspective. In a sense it is the logical end of the metaphysics of 1 Cor 15. How do we get to all in all, and connect those dots adequately where creator and creature unify and yet properly retain their uniqueness, contra say the Vedantic end where unity is essentially without difference.

            This, to me, is how.

            I do see where you’re coming from, though. I just don’t know that I can fully align there.

            Thank you for the conversation as usual! You’re my guy!

            Liked by 1 person

          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            And to the point about talking about the incarnation, I was just suggesting that theophanies can be talking about in a prior sense, because well, to borrow from a conversation I listened to with Fr Behr recently, since essentially time is somewhat retrocausal, they appear because they get their meaning from the proper actuality of the Incarnation. In a sense, they are before but only get their meaning after, and yet to speak of them is necessary to ground the immensity of the moment. So you do have to be able to talk about a before with the Incarnation in the scriptures, but it will only get its meaning after the actual Incarnation occurs.

            Liked by 1 person

  2. Logan(mercifullayman) says:

    I really appreciate this work! I do! It’s great to see other people who bring in some of the antagonists like Zîzek and Badiou for instance, as well as getting around the traditional scopes of Aquinas, etc. Thank you for that!

    I do think the section on Schelling is a bit overstated even if it is proving a very resounding point that I don’t think he is making himself. The Freiheitsschrift is peculiar in that it expands firmly on what I think is the implied tension of Neo-Platonism itself. What is the actual arena for the no-thing to exist not as me on but as a truly accurate picture of divine movement. I’d say it still should be pushed to love per se. It’s about freedom and the freedom to be, as you postulate, but I think we have to be careful to think of the potencies as just sheer unbridles possibilities in the mind of Schelling. Ages of the World in all its forms, proves that thesis that the antagonism of existence is an unbridled negative too, which helps move the good and the true. I can totally dig it, (see my note on Eriugena) and get it, but I think we have to be careful in attributing that to Schelling. Even in his “positivist” move later, he’s going to push to the heights by accepting quoditty over quiddity. The Thatness of God is just as important as the who/what. What is that thing? It is fully free to actualize and manifest as it is. We attach love because we understand it as love within the theological sphere, like Marion shifting the ground of being beyond being to Charity/Agape. And don’t get me wrong…..I think you’re spot on about the movement of it all, I just think there is some clarity there that we have to hit on, especially when using the essentially Böhmeian ideas that ground both Schelling, Von Baader, and Berdyaev. All of whom, I think, are picking up on what you are, just exchanging semantics for freedom and love.

    The other side of this in regards to Hegel’s Dasein is the immediate tension of the horizon of being for us. It is the deepest subjective state in which we shape what will become from the same ontic horizon. It is literally the contradiction of the two existing at the same time. I think we have to be careful to see this as the same no-thingness of the Apophatics/East. However, as a creature on the subjective side of the frame, it is the event horizon for the freedom to realize what we as creative agents do. It is the acceptance of the state of mind we and others around us are as we march towards a universal, even if we don’t accept fully what that universal is….Spirit.

    Thanks man! This is great!

    Liked by 1 person

    • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

      Have to be careful not to see this* sorry for the typo

      Liked by 1 person

    • Roman says:

      You’re right about Schelling, I push Schelling a littlebit further to where I think he should go as opposed to where he actually does go. Ages of the World is difficult for me, because the different versions have different ways of working out the dialectic. The one I read first is one in which it seems he’s trying to make a kind of, almost deterministic whole (perhaps closer to Hegel), which for me takes away the dynamism of the freedom essay, although people who know Schelling better than myself tell me that this is not the case with the other drafts.

      The God as Love addition is mine, and if I gave the impression I was taking that from Schelling that was a mistake. Of course there are many who have worked out the idea of God as love (Like Eriugena, you mention Marion, I have enjoyed Marion’s work a lot, although in “You are Gods” DBH has made me doubt his notion of the saturated phenomenon, but my mind is not made up there). I feel as though I’m a tomb robber, exploring places which have been constructed and explored before, but feeling my way around trying to find some treasures.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

        I first found Hegel, and then started reading Schelling to see why he was “wrong” but then found myself aligning more towards him, particularly as you track him across the whole of the corpus. He seems, in many ways, more intellectually vibrant as you see the shifts in focus and the “working” out a more nuanced position, especially in the later Hegelian rebuttal. Interestingly enough, I don’t think he lands too far afield from Eriugena, especially as they both have the common tie of Nature and what it really “means.” I mean he may be wrong about the causa sui, but he is also intimately aware to push even the ground of the divine life into the realm of the beyond being. Have to remember, that just as Eriugena is balancing cataphatic and apophatic thought, Schelling explicitly affirms the same goal in the “Philosophy of Revelation” lectures.

        Both charged with Pantheism, both definitely not pantheists in the slightest. “Theos kai pan” means more than just that silly trope. I’m glad in Eriugena, I think I’ve found a better way to find the missing piece.

        I also think Michel Henry may be better than Marion if we want to be in the French circles, but I appreciate what Marion was trying to do with “God without Being.”

        I also say this as someone who isn’t an open theist per se, but thinks the tension of becoming is far more nuanced than the classical definition may allow. I don’t think it’s an either/or proposition, but merely one of personal perspective, and find the right eyes to see.

        Liked by 1 person

  3. Tom says:

    Roman,

    Thank you for this. I love thinking about these questions.

    I wanna comment on this:

    “One may say that the possible worlds are merely virtual, merely concepts in the mind of God; so although God is not a finite being, why couldn’t he consider virtual or conceptual possible worlds and then pick one to actualize? The problem is that the exercise of picking out a possible world—and therefore picking out what is necessary, possible, and impossible—depends on these possibilities and necessities and impossibilities being independent of the exercise itself. For God, any conceptual possible world is not, in fact, possible outside of God willing it to be, the state of affairs in which anything is possible is the act of creation. Therefore, any state of affairs that God does not will is impossible, yet it would be not impossible had he created it.”

    Let’s assume (as I do) that events might often occur other than they do. A married couple deliberating whether to have a 4th child and deciding to do so (though they genuinely may not have), or their naming a child ‘Joe’ instead of ‘Sam’ though both names were deliberated, or, more significantly, Hitler’s having succeeded in Vienna at becoming the artist he wanted to be and so not having been radicalized to become the monster he became, or Lincoln’s not being assassinate, or my making a different move than I did in a game of chess I lost to Fr Al, etc.

    We may be uncomfortable accounting for God’s free determination to create in counterfactual terms. Fine. But there’s no good reason to suppose we cannot or shouldn’t conceive of our world in its temporal becoming, at least sometimes, in counterfactual terms. But to conceive of what might have been is to conceive of other ‘states of affairs’ sustained by God, and I think it a mistake to conclude that ‘other ways the world might be’ are in fact ‘impossible’ since they are not the world God in fact sustains.

    While it’s certainly true that no conceivably possible state of affairs is in fact possible outside God’s willing it to be, it doesn’t follow from this that whatever in fact occurs could not have occurred otherwise. And if we take the branching of created possibilities as representing genuinely possible ways the world might be, we have (I think) also to suppose that there are in fact possible worlds others than our present world which God might now be sustaining. In other words, I don’t think it’s the case that ‘all that God can do he in fact does’ since there are innumerable ‘states of affairs’ God might not be sustaining had the world taken a different path than it in fact took. One could argue the world does not in fact possess the sort of agency or ‘say-so’ that make alternative possibilities ‘real’ (as opposed to merely ‘conceivable’ though impossible), but there’s nothing (I don’t think) about God or our experience of the world that imposes that view upon us. There’s a certain historical necessity that we attribute to past events, but this doesn’t falsify all counterfactual propositions about the past, for at least sometimes it may be true that events might have been other than they were.

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    • Roman says:

      I think I agree with you in the becoming of creation. So from the standpoint of creatures engaging with a world of givens, choices are made that could have been made otherwise (all of these givens and the ground of all possibilities are grounded in God), in that sense there are counterfactuals, but those counterfactuals depend on the givens of creation in which free creatures interact.

      So I think God actualizes the world in which we made our choices (I am, like you, at least if this is the same Tom, an open theist), in that world creaturely choices do involve counter factuals. But I don’t think this can be applied to God as there are no givens whatsoever from which choices are made by God in the act of creation.

      So yes, I agree with you.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Tom says:

        “…Tom, an open theist.”

        أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم

        (Just a private note!)

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      • Tom says:

        Just to clarify, I don’t bring any special ‘open theist’ convictions to this. The idea that we face genuine alternative possibilities is something indeterminists who are not open theists hold to as well. Things really might have been different than they are, and the explanation for why they are what they are, or might have been other than they are, often times lies finally in created agencies and events themselves. So there really are ‘possible’ states of affairs that do not occur but which are not on that account ‘impossible’ (because God never created or sustained them in or through our agency).

        Liked by 1 person

        • Roman says:

          Right, so I’m not denying the sense of talking about possible states of affairs writ large, but I am saying that talk looses its sense, when we go to God in himself, sans creation, or in his act of creation.

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          • Tom says:

            Yes. Thank you Roman! I guess there are differences that inevitably emerge among us all when we speculatively contemplate such realities. I’ll just say that I’m inclined to agree God’s own free choice to create is best thought of a the converging of what for us appear to be incommensurable categories (of necessity, possibility, freedom, etc). But I don’t extend this to describing how possibilities within the created order (including God’s sustaining/creative act of that order of becoming) are known by God. That is, I don’t suppose that what are genuine alternative possibilities for us, possibilities we render unactualized as we act, are for God known to be ‘impossibilities’ since they never came to be. If I’m muddying the waters, sorry. Cheers!

            Liked by 1 person

  4. It’s one thing to have novel ideas; quite another to provide arguments that actually recommend them. Certain continental thinkers (like Badiou and Zizek) generate quite a bit of novelty while neglecting reasons to think they are correct. (After reading Badiou’s attempt at set theory, I’m rather inclined to think that being correct is not something he’s interested in.) This is not universal — Hegel provided arguments, if in compact form, and Badiou’s student, Meillassoux, is rather refreshing in making a clear case.

    It may be an interesting point that the thoughts of certain thinkers can “allow us to talk about” possibility and necessity. But do they offer a reason for thinking they are, in fact, correct? Or are they just a pleasant, intellectually patterned fancy?

    Every time I see the claim “reason starts to break down when it comes to …”, I wonder if that’s just a substitute for the incapacity of a particular claim to sustain critical inquiry.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Roman says:

      Perhaps, although as I point out generally reasoning is engaging with a set of givens, entailments of relations.

      I don’t want to be dogmatic about approaches, but I think that one shouldn’t assume that one ought to begin with abstract reasoning, perhaps the starting point ought to be a phenomenological approach. I think this is the case with love.

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      • > perhaps the starting point ought to be a phenomenological approach. I think this is the case with love

        Why? If someone said to you that the starting point for understanding your life was astrological, you might find it interesting, but I doubt you’d take it seriously.

        Even if I were to grant that phenomenology had some use (and I’m very reticent to say that anyone mentioned in this article is doing phenomenology), the problem remains: on what principled basis do we determine what to attribute to God?

        Presumably we’re past the mythical attribution of sexual reproduction to God, such that the connection between human love, sexuality, and procreation cannot be characteristic of God’s love.

        Christian theologians have a principled way to do this: if God is similar in some way to us, it can only be in a way that does not attribute finitude to him. Thus, if God is limited with respect to space and time, or with respect to his knowledge or goodness, or with respect to his intelligibility or power. Anything less than this is just a form of mythology, differing only by degrees from the stories of the foibles of the Olympic gods.

        Gregory of Nyssa’s Against Eunomius is a classical example of how this distinction can be made.

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        • Roman says:

          The reason I think phenomenology should be considered as a starting point is that when it comes to love, our knowledge of it is nothing more than our experience of it. Therefore, even if language is being applied analogically to God, it is analogous to our language, which, when it comes to love, is grounded in our experience of Love. Scotus makes a good point about this, and I think it’s correct, all analogy must have a univocal basis.

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          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Roman, can’t this be said of anything, that knowledge is “nothing more” than our experience? Why restrict this to love only? I am not following that.

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          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            Jeezzzz you had to bring in the one guy everyone here hates worse than Aquinas lol

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          • Roman,

            I don’t think you answered my question. I observed that there are elements in human love which no-one attributes to God (e.g., due to our biology, the forces of sexual selection, etc).

            The problem is how to avoid attributing to God attributes of human love that are distinctive to human beings because of our physical, biological, and social characteristics. As far as I can tell, nothing you have said promises to answer that question. Classical approaches (here I’m including Platonic, Aristotelian, and the philosophically minded Medievals) are able to do just that.

            And if your philosophical position cannot increase our knowledge of the nature of human and divine love above the mere experience of it, why even recommend a philosophical approach at all? On your own account, it adds nothing to our understanding?

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          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            “I don’t think you answered my question. I observed that there are elements in human love which no-one attributes to God (e.g., due to our biology, the forces of sexual selection, etc).

            The problem is how to avoid attributing to God attributes of human love that are distinctive to human beings because of our physical, biological, and social characteristics. As far as I can tell, nothing you have said promises to answer that question. Classical approaches (here I’m including Platonic, Aristotelian, and the philosophically minded Medievals) are able to do just that.

            – I’m not Roman, so this is how I would respond and will take a crack at this. We definitely DO talk about God and his attributes of love in the same way. Eros, the same tension of erotic desire is the same. The difference is modal but not in its ground. We may experience it in a different way via the Fall, but we very much do still talk about it in the same way. That is somewhat of a misleading claim. Any of the 4 types of love as multiplicity still unite into a same univocal ground, God, who expressly is stated to be that solo thing, at least if we take St. John to be telling the essential truth. Love simply is love and as such is God. Love imitates, or rather is the actual closest thing to the horizon of being as such as we phenomenologically experience it. From a perspective like Roman’s, or mine, if I’m not overstating it, the truth of the act is not just in its objectivity but also in the subjective coming to know. What is seen is merely one side of a much larger puzzle, seen from a different way, the truth is gleaned in other ways, which means that meaning is found in both a tied immanent act, as well as also a transcendent moment where it can be seen. One must experience it, understand it, but also know that it exists prior to it. That way, it isn’t a Fichtean false notion of I=I of self-determination solely as the maker of reality, nor a Nietzschean/Schopenhauerian notion of will to itself to become to actualize. It is an amalgam of finding proper sight.

            Love is unity that finds multiplicity and yet is still a unified act/thing and yet defies even the appearance as such in both an immanent and transcendent way. That’s what univocity is really about. Predication can be spoken of exactly in the ground of that thing. Then from there, analogy can come out of it. Not the other way around. It gets twisted so much by misappropriation and Thomistic legerdemain that the Scotist perspective on love isn’t fully wrong (he is wildly wrong on predestination though lol, but so was Thomas so we’re 1-1). One can maybe update some terms, but the truth at the heart of it is that if you can find any univocal moment, you can find them all(as it pertains to the realm of Being, Marion for instance is wrong to see Scotus as any less metaphysically apophatic as Thomas, he’s just arguing about the realm of being as it pertains to “concrete” metaphysics).

            And oddly, to bring us back to Eriguena, love is the only “transcendental” that he doesn’t use in those terms, precisely because love doesn’t need a preposition to say what it is doing. It simply is. Good can be for, through, and in itself, so can being, so can truth. Love really can’t, for then it modifies the action and authenticity of it. Love is already a presupposed action for another. Any self-love, isn’t true love because in the end it would be self-giving/self-receiving, which is well selfish.

            So then to also bring Robert’s point into this:

            Experience doesn’t reify knowledge. Experience experiences knowledge and coupled with the intuition/understanding/perspective, it picks up on the shades of knowledge that can be gleaned and from that builds outward both subjective and objective truths that then merge together into the act of Being. Then, once experienced, can be understood in their proper mediums. It isn’t true just because I experienced it, it’s true because I experienced the truth and understood it as such as it was a phenomenal act where both the experience and truth of it ontically coincide through the mind/flesh/life etc, to use those terms in their proper domain of phenomenology. One can’t be said to know anything just because they “experience” it, one can be said to know when they can understand it and then bring it back from the depth of experience to recall/explanation/etc, and even in those moments truth for instance, is truth. It really is, but whatever we say about God isn’t analogical because analogy is what we have. Its truly true that God is truth, so this is the same and yet, He is also more than truth too. One gets both the univocal hold, as well as the analogical tool, and comes out still being able to speak adequately and really mean what you say.

            Sorry, Roman, if I tracked off the path you would be as an Open Theist/Process person, and look forward to your response. I have a lot of sympathy for those perspectives too, I just think there is a middle road and constant misappropriation of even Neo-Platonic adjustments/early Christian thought about what exactly is going on leads to some false dilemmas that need not hold in discourse.

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          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Logan,

            See my response to Roman – analogy from Aristotle to Aquinas, pace Duns and Ockham, does not understand there to be, nor utilizes, a univocal core from which to derive meaning and truth. This is to say that the likeness between God and creature is analogical, not univocal. Appeals to univocal similarity, be it through experience, reasoning, phenomenology, and such, is per classical analogy a false move, leading to a false conception of God, of God made in man’s image.

            To use love as an example. We can affirm and know truthfully that God loves and that God is love, and there is a likeness to love as we know it, but this likeness is always beyond our knowledge, so the analogical comparison remains a process where univocity does not obtain for the modal difference prevents this – the similarity is always overtaken by dissimilarity so that more qualifications, more judgments have to be made how creaturely love is like and unlike God’s love. In this analogical process wee are not drawing a common *univocal* ground of love to come to understanding.

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          • Roman says:

            Thank you Logan, to be honest I’m underread on Eriguena, so he is someone I need to study more on to be able to say anything intelligent here.

            That being said, I resonate with what you’re saying, it’s close to what I want to say.

            I take an Open Theist position largely for the sake of theodicy, I have no metaphysical commitments with that regard though.

            I also agree with you that we cannot just take a linear view of something like love, and creation itself. I find that these approaches almost always collapse and really cannot even account for a phenomenological position of human love and creativity, and I do think we need to start there before doing that work of analogy to move towards theology.

            But I do need to get on Eriguena,

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          • Roman says:

            Robert

            I would say that love would be in the category of the saturated phenomena, i.e. the intuition is overwhelmed, such that the categories of understanding cannot grasp the phenomenon (or, if you ask DBH, insofar as I understand him, the other way around). So our knowedge of love cannot ever be abstract such that it can be seperated from the actual experience of it.

            Nevertheless, my point really applies for everything, but experience isn’t perhaps the correct word, I mean the sense, there has to be some univocal sense in which any analogous language is applied to God.

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          • Roman says:

            Of course there are elements of our love that cannot be applied to God as Love/God’s love, but why think they are essential to the type of love we are discussing? I’m not ruling out analogous language, in fact, a phenomenological approach is necessary for an analogical approach in my opinion.

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          • Logan,

            There’s a lot there, but it evades the main issue. There is a principled way to distinguish what can cannot be said of God: if it entails any form of dependence on creation, any change of state (such as an emotional change of state, any spatio-temporal location — in short any kind of finitude, it can be ruled out.

            It could be there’s some fellow up there who is quite exceptional in many ways, though limited. But my interest in such a being is much like my interest in extra-terrestrials (i.e., skeptical and unimpressed with the evidence)

            I’m interested in God with a capital G — the sole source and end of all that is, the unrestricted and immutable act of understanding.

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          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            Thomas,

            There is a lot to unpack because it defies a western logic. How can a thing be beyond being and yet also being itself? Lonergan is obviously wise. He’s also pedantic and obtuse and not nearly as scintillating as either Heidegger or the French religious phenomenologists. I’ve read Insights. Yet, it’s unmoving. Asserting I’m somehow making a qualifying panentheism is false as well, and an easy throw out to the actual argument. If you want to parse it out, I’m happy to dialogue about it.

            I’m gonna commit a fallacy for you to make the point….if everyone I appeal to is someone like Heraclitus, Plotinus, Origen, the Cappadocians, Maximus, Eriugena, Scotus (properly understood), the idealists, and silver age Russians (including Frank), etc I don’t think I’m honestly pandering to panentheism or what you’re understanding things to be saying. Or, I just stink at expressing them. Even the guy who I think I know the best, Berdyaev, is also completely dualistic and so far from even that tangential point that it doesn’t make sense. (And he’s wrong about some things, he also isn’t about a lot either when it comes to theogonic activity properly understood or the creative act of man.)

            Your own fear of actualization, which, I’d also add is the same categorical shift Augustine messed up when he was so close in Trinitas and somehow forgot in the Confessions and the Pelagian controversy, makes sense. How could a God be so close to us that He is even closer than our actual self, and yet so far removed that he isn’t actualizing in what we are if he is to maintain that distance and we aren’t a part of that? It’s logically incoherent. He is both….as he rightly says in the confessions….yet that comes at an actual price.

            To bring forth, what you as the ground of all things are, allows you to be beyond them and also a piece of them. That is common-sensical. Or maybe I’ve read too much Teillhard de Chardin or Sri Aurobindo (to bring in a Vedantist) to know the difference between the interplay of God and Man, which is short hand for our own timeframe of perichoresis as humans, in a Neo-Chalcedonian way.

            I’m not evasive at all. I’m just not willing throw aphophais or kataphasis into the trash or into a solid camp. They synthesize the whole…..and I’d rather say “plus quam” than any “via”.”

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          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Hi Roman,

            Thanks for your engagement on this, and the article you wrote.

            This is a big topic, I don’t even know how we got to this in this discussion, but to summarize Aquinas makes a distinction between analogous and univocal terms which differs radically from the likes of Scotus and Ockham. Analogous terms are not a mix of part univocal, part equivocal meanings or elements. The analogous like/unlike indeterminancy is within the concept itself, so that there’s never enough that can be said, the dissimilarity outstripping the likeness and thus always requiring further judgment to obtain truthful meaning. For Aquinas there does not exist a univocal basis between God and creature, nor can knowledge of God obtained by such. Knowledge of God is by way of analogy, full stop. God loves and is love. But what do we mean by this? We note that God loves and exists according the mode of His nature – which is unlike our nature’s mode. Aquinas says that love is present in each “according to the mode proportionate to the nature of each.” We love according to our natural mode, and God according to his. We participate in love and love is distinct from our existence; not so for God, who is the principle and origin of love, whose existence is love: God is love. The point is that there’s not a shared-in-common univocal core in which both God and creature participate. There’s a likeness for sure but it is not a univocal likeness, it is analogous.

            Analogy is primarily the process of value making, not a theory of language. Analogy is kryptonite to analytic philosophers. In place of tight syllogisms, tidy equations and calculated precision, there’s the messy indeterminate process of value judgments made by noting similarity in difference, yielding ever-imprecise results in its insistence on “the modes proportionate to the nature of each.”

            Why is this important to this discussion? Love, nor our experience of it, cannot serve as or constitute a univocal basis between God and creature to establish truthful knowledge of God.

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          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            Robert,

            We’ve danced this dance before and I hear you. I genuinely do. But I don’t look at Scotus or understand him in the way that you surmise. I see him in the way Richard Cross, Ingraham, et al. do.

            I think he’s been seriously misunderstood, and in his attempts to give us a common language to discuss things truthfully and with meaning, as well as using the gifts of natural faculty to be able to understand the innate revelatory expression of the Deity itself, I align with him there in that unitive experience. He is no more creating a false picture of God than anyone else would be (Thomists could be said to do this same thing at times). And maybe that’s just it, we aren’t going to agree on that. I think he already preemptively corrects the assertions by most Thomists and RO types by heading off those presuppositions between quantitive and qualitative issues, as well as really understanding the fact that analogy solely always leads us into equivocation. DPP 4.56-74 already heads off the assertion that God somehow seemingly becomes an idol or panentheistic trope. And also, what I’m suggesting by being supportive of the tool of univocal language is not to equate God and being as he does as a science. I genuinely think he and Thomas both get unfairly treated in this same way. Theology and metaphysics are distinctively scientific to them, but, that doesn’t mean that in the journey of finding answers God can be being solely. I think they both ultimately understand it that way. Scotus with his emphasis on “infinite” and the modality distinctions, Thomas in his notions of while God being esse bonnum, also realizing that being more than being itself as its ground.

            So I can appreciate them both for what they offer, even if I feel one leads closer to the language tools I choose to use. After all, all of Christian thought is a glorious synthesis of theology and philosophy. We’re all just trying to find explanations that work. And so I can say love is the same conceptually, even if it isn’t in actuality, and let the formal modal distinctions do the work. After all if one is becoming many and returning to the one, then those concepts must help gird the underpinnings of all that is. And to me, personally, finding that in Scotus along with other people who tend to find a more monistic understanding of things, gives me comfort.

            Not saying you are wrong, just saying we view it differently. I am a novice after all. What do I know?

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          • Roman says:

            “There’s a lot there, but it evades the main issue. There is a principled way to distinguish what can cannot be said of God: if it entails any form of dependence on creation, any change of state (such as an emotional change of state, any spatio-temporal location — in short any kind of finitude, it can be ruled out.”

            Thomas, I don’t see this necessarily as finitude, following Hegel I think one can, and must say, that the infinite encompases the finite, it is not merely the negation of the finite (I also like Wolfhart Pannenberg on this front). So for me the infinite is dynamic with the finite.

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        • > the truth of the act is not just in its objectivity but also in the subjective coming to know.

          The coming to know, as such, is precisely not yet having the truth, and being in the learning process.

          If this were true, then we would have access to some higher truth than God. I can’t expand on it much here, but I laid out my view in §3 of this article on EO. (For the real deal, Lonegan’s Insight is the best corrective to these phenomenological conflations of the given with reality as reality.)

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          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            That’s also patently false. The shades of truth you experience in a situation at one point in your life may change via context, or reoccurrence depending on circumstance. There is no higher truth than the truth. That’s a fallacy. What there is, is a better understanding of the actuality of an event, as seen from a different point of view. The truth, as it appears, shifts. So it isn’t so much processional, as much as much as it is experiential. They are equally valid at the time. And yet they are also both true and non-true. It isn’t less true to you at X date for what you encounter than maybe what you realize at Y truth later. They are merely shades of the same truth.

            You’re saying nothing different than Heidegger surmised…..but if truth is a procession, and we are marching towards it, what delineates its objectivity? Or are we making it true because we want to be true.

            At least in my view, we’re finding a locus. In yours, it’s so fluid you don’t know what grounds it as up or down.

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          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            Forgive my cellphone typos! I’m not an idiot, I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express!

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          • > What there is, is a better understanding of the actuality of an event, as seen from a different point of view. The truth, as it appears, shifts. So it isn’t so much processional, as much as much as it is experiential. They are equally valid at the time. And yet they are also both true and non-true.

            This conversation reads like ChatGPT has been let loose on the third-hand interpretations of Continental philosophy circulating among graduate students in the English department.

            I simply can’t discern any at an argument here, much less one that holds together. All the best, Logan. Perhaps you are really saying something.

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          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            Yeesh! You don’t have to take it personally. All I was asking for was a conversation. And you’re right. I just go to chatgpt and say can I have the best argument for a unitive expression of theological identity. I mean take the simple example of a tree and its shadow? The sun shines and there is a shadow….depending how it’s viewed it is both true and untrue depending on perspective of how it shifts and moves. To make any claim about the authenticity of moment depends on a variable and yet also doesn’t. There is a shadow, but where.

            I asked for a dialogue. If you don’t want to parse that out, so be it. Anyone here will tell you I’ve made plenty of arguments worth having. No need to be catty.

            I’m just trying to learn and hope people can change my mind.

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          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            Robert,

            Did some ruminating and I think a great mediated position is Hymn 23 by Saint Symeon the New Theologian. It’s strikingly close to how I would perceive all this to work, and even retains both factions of actualization and emanation. If you’ve never read it, check it out and let me know what you think. Would be curious to your thoughts

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          • Robert Fortuin says:

            Yes I love it, can’t go wrong with St Symeon. He artfully describes the “excess,” the ever-continuing process of learning, of “knowing, yet now knowing” apprehending but yet not apprehending. This is how I understand analogy as well. I don’t see the lapse into equivocity (as some fear) – it is analogy after all, and true knowledge, apprehension is affirmed for there is a likeness, but this is an analogous likeness which draws not on a common univocal concept (of knowledge in this case), but on the meaning of knowledge as we encounter it in use. One of the reasons that I prefer emanation over creation is that in our encounter of the image we do really encounter the Original. Or we can say we encounter the supernatural in the natural (or better yet, we cannot make a “two tier” grace vs. nature schema). Creation is not so neatly separated from God, for after all the classic confession is that God + creation do not equal 2. No fear of pantheism, equivocity, modal collapses, etc. for the Ur-division between uncreate and created is affirmed. The distinction then is not of a division between two objects, but rather as of the mode of each according to its respective nature.

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          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            And I agree with you from the other end of the dialectic. It’s why I picked it. I think you and I see each other, and we’re trying to say a lot of the same things, but you’re a bit more top down, and maybe I’m admittedly a bit more bottom up. I put more into the actuality of the creative act via emanation than I should, but we lean into the same idea. The modes you discuss in the end is how I think proper univocity is under stood. It allows us to be as analogically oriented as we want because it is so grounded. But I also see how language could allow the inverse to be true.

            Once I really stopped and thought about it, that Hymn kinda ties us together even if language/concepts detract us. We aren’t as far off as you think, friend. Glad you saw where I was going! Proves I’m not a program! Jk lol

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          • Thank you Logan, I agree with you on these points.

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  5. John H says:

    Father Al,

    After reading your comments in this thread, I think that you should revise the statement at the top of the page to read; I am a blogger and a damned good philosopher. That Eriugena quote was spot on in that it illuminates the impossibility of our feeble minds ever comprehending God beyond being in His utter simplicity before creation. Indeed, Eriugena even has the audacity to say that God does not comprehend Himself. Apophasis raised to the Googleplex power.

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