Is Gehenna a Place You’d Ever Want to Visit?

Universalists do not, as a rule, deny Gehenna. Thomas Talbott is case in point. He believes that it is possible for human beings to reject God. Those who die in their rejection will find themselves in a post-mortem condition of suffering. We can describe this condition in various ways, but the one constant is suffering. To obdurately rebuff the mercy of God is to bring upon oneself judgment, privation, and misery. So far, Talbott stands in agreement with one of the foremost exponents of the choice model of hell, Jerry Walls. But Talbott then goes on to argue that perditional suffering will inevitably demolish all the delusions and false reasonings that make hell seem more attractive than heaven. All God needs to do is allow the damned to experience the spiritual and psychological consequences of their rejection; all he needs to do is to give them what they believe they want. Reality will do the rest.

Talbott directs us to the lake of fire in the Book of Revelation. He plausibly suggests that this lake of fire symbolizes the holy presence of God. The repentant experience this presence as refreshment, healing, purification, sanctification; the impenitent as torment and misery. Walls advances a similar interpretation: “Fire in the Bible is a common image for the presence of God, not his absence. But his presence is experienced very differently by those who are rightly related to him, as opposed to those who are not.”1 Walls quotes New Testament scholar Robert Muholland:

If, as John says, those in hell are in fire in the presence of the Lamb (Rev. 14:10), who in the vision is seated on the throne with God (7:17), and the Water of Life flows from the throne (22:1), then both the fire image and the water image are linked to the throne.2

Eastern Orthodox readers are no doubt thinking, “What took them so long? It’s the River of Fire!”

But unlike Walls, Talbott believes that the damned will experience their condition as intolerable, unbearable, unendurable. Each person will reach his breaking point. Follow­ing upon the imaginative vision of George MacDonald, Talbott conjectures that God might even allow the damned to experience existence absent his presence, love, and blessing. No human being can survive the horror of this nothingness:

No matter how tenaciously some sinners might pursue a life apart from God and resist his loving purpose for their lives, God has, as a sort of last resort, a sure-fire way of shattering the illusions that make their rebellion possible in the first place. To do so, he need only honor their own free choices and permit them to experience the very life they have confusedly chosen. When, as a last resort, God allows a sinner to live without even an implicit experience of the divine nature, the resulting horror will at last shatter any illusion that some good is achievable apart from God; it will finally elicit, therefore, a cry for help of a kind that, however faint, is just what God needs in order to begin and eventually to complete the process of reconciliation.3

By hook or by crook, the damned will reach that point when they can no longer sustain their false beliefs and delusions. Talbott is even so bold as to assert that final reconciliation of all sinners to God will necessarily occur.

Walls advances a strong objection to the Talbottian thesis: repentance under the condition of unbearable suffering can be neither free nor sincere:

We can only absorb so much pain, so if hell forcibly imposes ever-greater suffering, no one could resist forever. . . . Our freedom can only bear so much pressure in this regard. At some point, if the pain is simply too intense, we would be forced to either give in or die.4

But of course the damned cannot die; escape is impossible. Having run out of options, what choice do they have but to beg their Creator for mercy? Walls compares the eschato­logi­cal experience of unendurable suffering to a form of judicial torture designed to exact a plea or confession. Given the excruciating pain, the victim must eventually break and confess his alleged crimes; but the confession will be neither freely given nor credible. Similarly, how likely is it that repentance expressed under conditions of Gehennic duress will represent authentic contrition and conversion? People will say or do anything to escape torture. “Repentance that is compelled in this way is not true repentance.”5 But what of the possibility that this horrific suffering might bring about salvific insight? God would neither cause nor allow it, argues Walls:

Now I am inclined to agree with Talbott that universalism follows if we grant his claim that no illusion can endure forever. But if he is correct in his account of why this is so, then it is apparent that God forces some persons to give up their sinful illusions. For if God causes those persons who continue to rebel against him to grow ever more miserable and tormented, then it seems that God is imposing on those persons the clear knowledge that he is the source of happiness, and sin the cause of misery. No one can avoid this knowledge for the simple reason that no finite being can continue endlessly to choose greater and greater misery for himself. So in the end, the knowledge which makes impossible the choice of damnation is not acquired through free choice, but is itself impossible to avoid.6

Walls affirms that sufferings of the damned are an intrinsic consequence of their choices and actions, yet he rejects the possibility that God would allow this suffering to reach its inevitable intensity that might bring them to to the point where they would confess their need for rescue. To do so would destroy their libertarian freedom. Walls also affirms the possibility that the damned may by their free choice escape hell and enter into that state of beatitude we call heaven, yet his position effectually denies the restorative purpose of infernal suffering, at least for most.

But consider an alcoholic whose drinking is progressively destroying his life. He may be aware of the damage he is causing to himself and others, yet he continues to drink regardless—such is the enslaving power of his self-denial and delusion. How is such a person to be helped? Conventional answer: either by allowing him to hit bottom on his own (as the folks at AA like to say) or by inducing an artificial bottom through inter­ven­tion. In both cases, suffering plays a key part. It is through his suffering (the more intense the better) that the alcoholic becomes open to the truth of his situation. The pain is not externally imposed upon him as a punishment: it is a natural consequence of his drinking. And without this misery, he would probably neither seek nor submit to treatment. This is why organizations like Al-Anon repeatedly tell the friends and family of alcoholics not to protect the alcoholic from the consequences of their drinking. They call it enabling. Hence we may distinguish between two kinds of compulsion: the right kind, which enables the sufferer to rationally recognize his misery as caused by his own choices and to seek help to change the behavior causing his misery, and the wrong kind, which is inflicted upon him externally for no good reason. The former functions as compelling evidence of the need to change; the latter does not function as evidence.7

Sin brings with it its own punishment. We may, therefore, speak of a suffering that is, as Karl Rahner puts it, “the connatural, intrinsic consequence of sin”—and if an intrinsic consequence, then divinely ordained and an expression of divine retribution:

The punishment of sin, in this sense, appears as the penalty inflicted by God as guardian of the moral order, since the hurtful structures of man and his world which sin inevitably sets in motion are created by God and hence are objectivations and expressions of his holy will. God “punishes” through the good world which he created and whose structures he still upholds when they are abused by finite freedom in an evil act. Since the creature cannot abolish them, they operate to cause pain through the objectivations of sin. . . . This enables us to understand the difference between “medicinal” and “vindictive” punishment, which again is not to be visualized along the lines of the penal law in force in the State. Every hurtful reaction of reality (in man and his world) to a wrong decision as it affects this reality is of itself a summons to “conversion”, to a better decision, more objective and humane, and has therefore a “medicinal” character. Because an expression of the holy will of God, it also has a “vindictive” (retributive) character, which does not of course mean that it must be understood as the angry reaction of a will imposing law merely extrinsically and adding punish­ments of an extrinsic type. The holy will of God which reacts retributively is the will which creates a good world and sustains it in its objective goodness. Punishment loses its medicinal character (in its effect, not in its essence) insofar as it is confronted with refusal by the free agent, either provisionally or finally through definitive obduracy.8

Sin rebounds upon itself in its encounter with the world God had made. The suffering sin brings upon the sinner is inherent to his or her existence and always contains redemptive possibilities. Rahner’s argument does not directly address Walls’s concern that excessive suffering in hell destroys freedom—for Rahner the damned have lost that freedom by their definitive rejection of God—but it helps us to see how one might speak of this suffering as divine remedial punishment that is not an externally-imposed form of torture.

Rahner then goes on to explain the eternal sufferings of the damned:

The radical contradiction between the permanent “supernatural exis­ten­tial”, the permanent offer of God’s self-communication in love, and the definitive obdurate refusal opposed to it by the free act will be experienced as the poena damni. And this is in fact the only explanation of the pain of loss, since if the punishment is understood as something extrinsically supervening, there would be no desire or need for the vision of God. And the poena sensus . . . in this view of perdition consists of the radical contra­dic­tion between what the lost obdurately insist on being (and are, “bodily”) and the permanent structures of a transfigured world which is their permanent setting.9

Rahner does not deny the intolerable depth of suffering in hell; it is but the inevitable consequence of the embrace of evil and the loss of the beatific vision. For a person to know that they have lost all possibility for happiness will necessarily be an unbearable torment. In this sense Rahner is still very much a traditionalist. Walls acknowledges the traditional vision of hell as entailing “a depth of despair and dismay that is beyond anything we can imagine,” “an unbearable agony and torment which must, nevertheless, be borne.”10 But he rejects the traditional view as inconsistent with hell itself, for if it were as horrific as Dante and Jonathan Edwards depict, no one would freely choose to remain there. In other words, Walls is compelled by his free-will model of perdition, like so many others who advance this model,11 to mitigate the Gehennic misery. Only by such mitigation can he explain why the damned refuse to repent. Walls then goes on to propose that hell must have its own perverted pleasures:

No one who choses to remain in bitterness, resentment, and alienation from those who love him or her is truly happy. And yet bitterness and resentment do offer a certain form of pleasure, twisted though it is. Those who cling to such pleasure may do so with a sense of triumph, illusory as it is, even as they defiantly lock and doors of hell from the inside, thereby remaining “in one sense, successful rebels to the end” [C. S. Lewis]. . . . Generally speaking, the reason hell can be freely chosen is that it is a distorted mirror image of heaven. There is no righteousness or holiness in hell, but it does offer the alternative of self-righteousness. It offers no real joy or happiness, but it does offer the deformed sense of satisfaction from holding on to bitterness, resentment, and hurt. There is no real fulfillment, but it does offer the illusory triumph of getting one’s way, self-destructive though it is. Hell is an empty shell of which heaven is the pulsating, vibrant reality. But the shell is not without its pleasures, miserable though they are.12

Hell as a “distorted mirror image of heaven”? The image that immediately comes to mind is a cheap, dilapidated motel on the bad side of town. The beds are full of lice, the linens haven’t been washed in ages, the desk clerk is rude, and the couple in the next room keep you up all night with their sexual frolicking. But since you can’t afford The Homestead, it’s better than sleeping in the gutter. At least the black & white TV works. And if you close your eyes and ignore the stench, perhaps you might even persuade yourself that you are staying at the Ritz . . . well . . . maybe the Holiday Inn.

The Gehenna of Jerry Walls is a far cry from the furnace of fire of which our Savior speaks, where “men will weep and gnash their teeth” (Matt 13:42). The reprobate choose to remain in hell because in their delusion they experience their condition as tolerable, and they deem it tolerable because God is protecting them from experiencing the full consequences of exclusion from the beatific vision. Perhaps we might call it the divine enablement model of hell.

Now let’s come back to Tom Talbott’s controversial claim: the afflictions experienced in Gehenna will inevitably break down all false beliefs and delusions, thus liberating the damned to recognize the fundamental truth of their creaturely existence—namely, that God wills for them the happiness they truly seek. The question thus becomes: Does the unendurable torment of hell violate the freedom of the damned . . . or does it restore it?

(16 August 2015; rev.)

Footnotes

[1] Jerry Walls, Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory, 85.

[2] Ibid., 86.

[3] Thomas Talbott, The Inescapable Love of God, 189.

[4] Walls, 78-79.

[5] Ibid., 79.

[6] Jerry Walls, Hell: The Logic of Damnation, 132.

[7] Talbott, 198-203.

[8] Karl Rahner, “Punishment of Sins,” in Encyclopedia of Theology, 1587-1588.

[9] Ibid., 1587.

[10] Walls, Hell, 146, 147.

[11] I am thinking, e.g., of Eleonore Stump’s rendering of infernal suffering: “Eleonore Stump and Hell.” Stump, however, does not affirm the possibility of escaping hell.

[12] Walls, HHP, 89-90.

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25 Responses to Is Gehenna a Place You’d Ever Want to Visit?

  1. Iainlovejoy says:

    It’s a weird notion to refuse to allow someone to understand and experience the full consequences of their actions and keep them in a state of just about bearable suffering under the deluded impression that this was the best they can get because it would remove their “free choice” if they fully understood how harmful what they wanted was to themselves. It’s not even that they are actually being allowed to choose what they want – they are being denied the full extent of their freedom they want because if they were actually granted it they wanted then they would realise their mistake and wouldn’t want it any more. It’s as if the Ritz and the fleapit were right next to each other and God is making the fleapit look slightly more attractive deliberately to ensure that some people may foolishly go there. It’s completely incoherent.

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    • DBH says:

      Name a defense of eternal perdition that isn’t incoherent and I’ll buy you a new car.

      I’ve known Jerry for many years, and he’s a good man, but arguments of this kind are embarrassing.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Henrique de Mello Santos de Assunção says:

        Would a defense of eternal perdition with a non benevolent God be coherent?

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        • Iainlovejoy says:

          Yes, but then, of course, you are left with the conundrum of how a non-benevolent God could be coherently visualised. A God who creates creation out of nothing, and beside whom there is nothing but the creation he created, couldn’t have any interests or aims outside or contrary to the wellbeing of His creation, so where or why could the hostility come from? I suppose one could have a go at postulating an indifferent God with no awareness or interest in our existence, but such a God would, by its nature, have no interest in sustaining our existence in hell, so such a God would only really by compatible with annihilationism (assuming he could be argued compatible with bothering to create us in the first place).

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          • Grant says:

            No really sure I agree. Looking at that creation alone, without some reason to believe creation was fallen, such as the revelation of God in Christ and His resurrection I would largely consider the God who brought that creation into being from nothing to non-benevolent to much of creation. Creation as is is full of such cruelty, suffering and death, and has been so for eons, since it has existed in fact, nature being full of such suffering, death and destruction that makes the evils of humanity like the work of rank amateurs most of the time.

            Cruelty and suffering also appear a feature, not a bug, that life, evolution and the universe depend upon.

            Much of it, on it’s own terms seems in the long term, cold, callous and uncaring, and would seem to reflect a Creator equally so, or at least whose intentions and nature is so other and unknowable as to mean the same thing just by another set of words.

            This is why most pagan cultures saw destructive chaos as the essence of reality, which had to be negotiated with and given outlets to keep what order there was (and in some, chaos and the monsters would always win in the end). It was also one where strength was worshipped (I’m generalizing here I know), and god’s need not be any sense good (at least as we would understand it).

            For looking at creation alone I would have no idea what such an unknowable but seemingly callous ultimate reality could intend, but would have no confidence that if there was any post-mortem existence it would not involve continued suffering, the dominion of the strong over weak etc.

            If this universe was the only insight to God I would say the best thing to hope for would be oblivion at death.

            It’s only a revelation of Christ that changes this, giving a reason to believe creation as it currently is is against God’s intentions and is in some sense ‘fallen’, lost in distorted illusions etc.

            Without that, I see every reason to fear any continued existence past death.

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          • Robert F says:

            Grant: Outside the revelation of divine love in Christ, the divinity that seems handwritten on the walls of existence is the god of Cormac McCarthy novels.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Iainlovejoy says:

            Ultimately, there is both good and evil in the universe. They are opposed and incompatible: if the universe has only one origin, one of these things is inherent to it and one in some sense incidental or temporary. While it may be very difficult to see why there is all this evil and suffering in a universe with its ultimate origin an end in the good, if the universe had its origin and end purely in evil, this would leave no possible explanation as to how there could be any good in it at all.

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          • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

            “Outside the revelation of divine love in Christ, the divinity that seems handwritten on the walls of existence is the god of Cormac McCarthy novels.”

            Or as Thomas Torrance would put it (in my colloquial English): There ain’t no other God hiding behind the back of Jesus Christ.

            For me, this is a rock-bottom faith commitment. If it isn’t true, then everything I have staked my life on for the past 40+ years is wrong.

            Liked by 1 person

  2. armsopenwide says:

    Makes sense. But I want to bring out the barrier my parish priests are proclaiming: eternity is timeless, and one can only repent in time, the time of this world. How timelessness and the sequential nature of movement and verbal utterence (the five syllables of “alleluia”) doesn’t make sense to me, but of course the ineffability of heaven can always provide an out for such reasoning.

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    • Iainlovejoy says:

      “You can’t repent in hell because God has set up hell in such a way as to make repentance impossible” doesn’t sound like much of a justification to me.

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    • One can’t ‘enter’ timelessness, either; if you could, it would be characterized by a sequence of events (i.e. would be temporal). All this says is that the people who ‘go to Hell’ have always already been there—God made them, in the eschatological creation, in Hell. That’s not acceptable, to put it lightly.

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    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      I think parish priests are wrong to identify the eternity of hell with the “timelessness” of divinity. Paul Griffiths elaborates on this in his book Decreation.

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  3. John Kleinheksel says:

    Fr Kimel, thank you for your 6.29.23 post comparing the views of Thomas Talbott, Jerry Walls and Karl Rahner. It prompts this response from me.

    That persons may have choices in the afterlife may be commonplace in Roman Catholic and Orthodox circles, but for us bibliophile Protestants, this is new ground to till. The classic Reformed/Lutheran view is that choices in this life lead to eternal felicity or damnation upon your death. No purgatory. No “second chance.”

    I was raised a Calvinist, steeped in the Heidelberg Catechism where Jesus’ descent into Hell was interpreted as Jesus on the cross, not in the interim period before his disciples experienced his resurrection. So, we need biblical justification for a “second chance” in the afterlife that might lead to continual hellish suffering or receipt of the gospel and communion with our Creator/Redeemer.

    This new ground opened up for me this Year A of the Eastertide season (common lectionary) with the study of I Peter 3:18-20, and I Peter 4:4-6.

    18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight lives, were saved through water (I Peter 3:18 – 20 NRSV).

    4 They (unbelieving Gentiles) are surprised that you no longer join them in the same excesses of dissipation, and so they blaspheme. 5 But they will have to give an accounting to him who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit (Spirit) as God does (I Pet. 4:4-6).

    It is clear Jesus died and rose again to reconcile us to God, “the righteous for the unrighteous” (3:18). He was crucified in the flesh and resurrected by the spirit [Spirit] and (in that state) “went and made proclamation (of the gospel as in 4:6?) to “the spirits in prison” (this is a cryptic phrase indicating Hades [Greek] or Sheol [Hebrew)]), the place of the dead. So far so good?

    Who are those in prison? Believers who have died, now to be set free? Or the unbelieving disobedient, needing a “second chance” at eternal life? And what does it mean that Jesus “proclaimed” there, (both passages)?

    The qualifying phrase makes it clear: “. . .to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey” (I Peter 3:20). Jesus goes to them in Hades/Hell! Noah is the Christ figure, “saved” with his family, while the others died in their sins. It seems that even after this life, God in Christ wants none to die because of their sin, but all to come to faith and be saved (I Timothy 2, 3, 4 – 3 This is right and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    It should not be hard for us to believe that God’s grace and justice does not go out of existence in the New Creation. God is the “consuming Fire” forever (Hebrews 12:29; 10:26-31, an enduring scriptural metaphor). (More on this later).

    And what would the resurrected Jesus Christ proclaim in Hades if not “the gospel” (I Peter 4:6)? Why would Jesus proclaim the gospel to them there, if there was no opportunity for them to say, “Yes”?

    We now go to the parallel passage in I Peter 4:4-6. The letter is written to believers, who have come out of a life of disobedience, now expected by the writer, to live for God, doing God’s will. The disobedient unbelievers will give an account to “the Judge of the living and the dead (4:5). For this reason, the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead. . .(4:6). This seems to be an exact parallel to I Peter 3:20 where Jesus proclaims [the gospel?] to “spirits in prison,” inviting them to receive the forgiving grace they spurned while in their lifetime. In this understanding, having been judged/condemned in this life, they might repent and believe the gospel and “live in the spirit (Spirit) as God does” (4.6b).

    The more traditional understanding is that “the dead” mentioned here are believers, who in this life have been persecuted, blasphemed and condemned, but who are now freed from death and live forever “in the Spirit, as God does.” That is, the gospel saves those who suffered and died trusting in Jesus.

    The more radical view is that Jesus proclaims the gospel even to disobedient unbelievers, “even to the dead, the spirits in prison,” giving them the opportunity to repent and believe the gospel. Thus, the “spirits in prison” (3:20) and “the dead” (4:6) are any and every human, humanly or divinely affirmed or condemned, in Hades, that they will repent, receive the love that permeates heaven and hell, and thus will forever live with and for God (and others).

    I Peter 4:5 indicates the disobedient will have to “give an accounting” to God as Judge. For this reason, [Jesus] proclaims the gospel “even to the dead” (in Sheol/Hades) so that they might still choose to receive forgiving love and thus live with God forever.

    And might this phrase, 6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does, mean that God had already judged (condemned?) them for how they lived during their lifetime, so that now, they might find the way to live in and by the (S)pirit as God does?
    Duncan E. Pile, in referencing these two passages, includes Ephesian 4:7-10 – 7 But each of us was given grace according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said,
    “When he ascended on high, he made captivity itself a captive;
    he gave gifts to his people” [Ps. 68:18].
    9 (When it says, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is the same one who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might fill all things.)
    Rev. Pile explains this passage this way: The one who ascended (who else could that be but Christ?) had first descended into Hades. . . .This same One, who descended to Hades and led captives out of captivity, then ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. Who else is the One who ascends to fill all things but Jesus, the Name Above All Names? This links directly to the passage previously quoted, from 1 Peter 3:18-20. (For Rev. Pile’s essay,”Is Grace Available After Death?” go here. It also parallels I Corinthians 15:28, which affirms that God will be “all in all.”
    My sense is that these passages are a precedent for including “He descended into Hell” in the Apostles’ Creed. In the light of this study, the Heidelberg Catechism, Question and Answer 44 is pertinent, but inadequate and incomplete, in my view, not taking full account of the scriptural record as cited above:

    Question: Why is there added [to the Apostles’ Creed]: ‘He descended into hell’?
    Answer: That in my severest tribulations, I may be assured that Christ my Lord has redeemed me from hellish anxieties and torment by his unspeakable anguish, pains and terrors which he suffered in his soul both on the cross and before. As support, the writers cite Isaiah 53:3 (He was wounded for our transgressions. . . .) and Matthew 27:46 (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)

    This answer is congruous with John Calvin’s view that what hell Jesus suffered was on the cross, with no visit to “spirits in prison” (I Peter 3:20), or “even to the dead” (I Peter 4:6). Yet, the implication of I Peter 3:18 – 4:6 is that, in his resurrected state, our Lord DID proclaim the gospel to disobedient unbelievers in Hades. The Heidelberg catechism (and Calvin) seem to discount a possible time when Jesus “proclaimed [the gospel] to “spirits in prison” [Hades], who disobeyed. . . .or “even to the dead” (4:6). Does Jesus extend grace even there, that they might believe and obey? I’m wanting to believe that he did! I also add that even if Jesus proclaimed the gospel to the disobedient “spirits in prison” and “even to the dead,” the dead still need to appropriate the gospel by their own choice, and be “saved” (forgiven, and free to love God and others in community). It’s not automatic, as “universalists” might state or imply.

    I very much resonate with Thomas Talbott’s and Jerry Wall’s referencing “Lake Fire” (The Message translation) as the Reality of God, who is experienced as retributive or redemptive, depending on your mindset.

    Humanity’s captivity to death/Hades has been made captive by our Lord, Jesus. Hebrews 2:14, 15 argues that Jesus shared our death-prone humanity, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the Devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death. There are those who fear eternal death. Let’s also admit there are also those today who do not seem to fear returning to cosmic dust. Others fear the possibility of eternal exclusion or even eternal, conscious torment. For those “in Christ,” there is no fear of condemnation.
    The Revelation poetically describes the death of death as Death and Hades being thrown into “the lake of fire” (what Eugene Peterson’s translation, in the Message, calls “Lake Fire.” I’ve reflected on “the lake of fire” over many years. Here is Rev. 20:14, 15 – 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire,15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. If you look carefully into The Revelation, you will find that “the lake of fire” (Lake Fire) remains as a lasting metaphor of Reality/God. It doesn’t go out of existence. Why?

    The dilemma is solved if, instead of seeing Hades/Hell as the eternal, tormenting, punishing Fire, (Rev. 20:10c), we see God as the eternal “Fire,” (Hebrews 12:29), who forever continues to burn away (and destroy) “evil” impurities unworthy of a child of God. Sure, God as “Fire” can destroy and condemn. But God can also refine and purify. Does God seek to destroy evildoers, or to give them “eternal” chances to submit to God’s order? God as Eternal Fire/Reality will go on forever. God’s adjudicating and purifying grace never go out of existence! Love (and justice) never end. God desires each of us to go through a “second death.” God’s steadfast love in righting relationships is at work forever! My foundational text is Hebrews 12:29 – For indeed, our God is a consuming fire. Humans are forever being judged, graced and brought into conformity as the true humans and children of God “in God’s likeness,” (Genesis 1:26) the image/likeness of Jesus, the Christ (Colossians 1:15-17).

    What Does “Fire” Mean?
    My theory/thesis is that we come to see “Fire” as of/from Deity and not an alien force in opposition to Deity. Historically, there are those who have seen “Hell” as God’s punishing wrath against sin and sinners and not as part and parcel of God’s own character, to rid God’s good creation of the evil we humans have perpetrated. God wants us and the created order to be restored to community, not forever being banished from it. “Hell” is not a stand-alone entity, apart from God. It is of God, from God, as part of what God purposes to do to redeem God’s “good” creation, to make it “new.”

    I am wanting to see Deity as the “Holy Fire” that pursues and punishes, yes, but who also disciplines and refines. What child, when his parent disciplines him, doesn’t see that action as punitive, as agonizing torment, as destructive? Yet, that punishment is intended to bring the child to a better place, within the family and the larger community.

    If my theory/thesis is in any way true, we mortals (believers or unbelievers), when we die, come face to face, not with Hell, but with God, the “Real” God, the God of retribution and redemption; the God who takes us from where God finds us and works with us until we get it right, and enjoy the benefits of citizenship in the Community God is recreating. Even if it takes “forever.”

    There is no escape. It’s appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment (Hebrews 9:27). The context of this passage is that Jesus, the Christ, suffered once, to bear the sins of many and will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those [willing to let Him do His saving work], Hebrews 9:28).

    I am wanting to see Hell as Purgatory. This allows for the expression of untold scriptural references that the wicked will be “consumed.” For example, Psalm 104:31 – May the glory of the LORD endure forever; may the LORD rejoice in his works. . . .Let sinners be consumed from the earth and let the wicked be no more. With God as our Eternal Fire, the purging may take forever, but “the wicked will be no more.”

    Instead of seeing death and Hades/Hell as a place of eternal (conscious) torment, since it is in the hands of our “Consuming Fire,” can’t we also see it as a place of eternal (conscious) refinement.

    When or if the damned will “give in to God” remains a mystery to me. We know it takes both God’s grace and human response to be in communion with God, but, in my view, we know no more how it will happen there than we know how it happens here.

    My thesis is that God as Fire, remains at work forever, as the “all in all” (I Corinthians 15:28), even in the presence of those who persist in resisting Reality to their own detriment, misery, resentment and self-righteousness.

    This preserves the freedom of choice with which we are endowed, and the sovereignty of grace and justice that characterize Reality.

    I’m with Karl Rahner in his view that suffering is to be seen as medicinal or vindictive, depending on the mindset of the “sinner.” Reality is Reality. The cosmos is composed of grace and gravity, freedom within created “order.” Humans cannot ultimately prevail against the sovereign will of our just and gracious God, who desires co-operation not defiance.

    There is never “freedom in itself.” It is always freedom from or freedom to. The only true freedom is the freedom to love and serve God and others who have loved and served us. Here and now. Then and there.

    I’m also with Frederick Buechner. As long as there is consciousness in Hell, there is the freedom to choose repentance and faith. The alternative is bitter resentment, the horrific depth of suffering, away from God. Forever. So, are we back to the “traditionalist” view? I could say more.

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  4. Fr Aidan Kimel says:

    Just did a little more tinkering. See if you can find it. 😎

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  5. Joe says:

    Father Kimel, forgive me if you have addressed this elsewhere, but how do you reconcile the possibility of efficacious grace (which I believe you lean towards) with a finite hell of any duration?

    Also, for those that are attached to the notion of post-mortem suffering as a remedial “strategy” employed/allowed by God: why would sinking one further into privation—that is, the unreal—serve as a greater impetus for metanoia than a disclosure of the Real? In what manner is the experience of the unreal and false better (more compassionate, more efficient, more advantageous) than the vision of the Real and True? Of course, one could argue that it is one and the same experience; that it is God’s very presence that torments “the damned”, but this is highly problematic as it would seem to render God’s Goodness as subjective rather than objectively true, contingent upon the state of the individual.

    As I see it, there are essentially two kinds of epiphany that lead to self-transformation: experiential knowledge of the wrongness of what one had chosen or the experiential knowledge of the rightness of what one had not chosen.

    If the goal is self-transformation (which I think we all hold to be true) and that this self-transformation can be effectuated without suffering (or with a minimum of suffering) it would seem that this would be the only possibility, morally speaking.

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    • Robert F says:

      I find it difficult to see how intense, unrelenting suffering could open a person up to positive transformation. In my experience, intense suffering, the kind that produces anguish, seems always to lead to more intense suffering, suffering produces suffering, and only when a free, open space breaks into or through the ordeal is it possible for beneficial change to happen. Otherwise, intense suffering degrades, making it impossible to be oneself. Anyway, that is my experience.

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      • Joe says:

        I completely agree, Robert. The experience of great suffering is a very inefficient catalyst for personal transformation. Initially, it produces little other than the desire to escape such suffering. With time, it caustically erodes the will; it diminishes capacities rather than expanding them.

        On the other hand, a vision of supernal beauty and bliss would quite naturally draw one in…and be healing in the process. Our capacities for good—to recognize and act on what is right and true— would be augmented when bathed in the light. (Also, the concerns about a loss of autonomy are unfounded. How can the bestowal of greater freedom of will, in that moment, be at variance with our free will? On the contrary—it’s the enactment of our freedom not its diminishment.)

        Anyhow, with the former, all that one desires is to move away from their vision. That is the primary motivation. With the latter, all one desires is to move toward their vision. It’s truly a monumental distinction.

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        • Robert F says:

          To speak of physical pain alone: During much of my life I suffered from cluster headaches. When I was in the grip of a bout of these headaches, which are known to be excruciating enough that sufferers have committed suicide to relieve themselves, I would’ve promised anything to any deity or demiurge or devil that could’ve given me relief. My willpower destroyed by the pain, all I could do was pace and gasp in anguish, my entire being willed toward and focused on one thing: the end of the headache. It’s the nature of cluster headache to recur and intensify over a period of time — for me around a month — occurring several times a day, and even more at night when headache would wake me in blinding agony. Experimental medications that I was prescribed help not in the least, nor did any somatic technique, such as meditation or acupuncture, nor did prayer (although the final end [to the present time] of my cluster headache suffering came in relatively close proximity to two things: a group charismatic prayer for healing, and the beginning of my marriage!). The episodes stopped for me in 1997. I don’t know what treatments have developed since then, but nothing worked back in the day. One just had to ride it out, without having any idea how to ride it out. Darkness was as excruciating as light, silence bad as noise, and sleep impossible. If Hell is worse than that (and it must be, right?), then I don’t see how Hell could transform anybody. All that suffering did was trash long periods of time in my life, crippling and debilitating my mind and body, and generating fear.

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          • David says:

            That sounds absolutely miserable Robert. I’m sorry you had to go through that.

            I’d agree that in general extreme suffering is unlikely to produce much fruit – although I wouldn’t discount the possibility of *some* suffering leading to repentance.

            For example, certain young children who might behave selfishly and refuse to share their toys. While I wouldn’t advocate plunging them into the outer darkness (!) for this crime, I wouldn’t be surprised if sometimes it is only after ‘getting a taste of their own medicine’ – i.e. the parent takes their toys a way for a while – that they start to reflect on their actions must have made others feel. In this way, understanding can be the first step towards repentance.

            Still, perhaps ‘giving a taste of their own medicine’ is unbecoming to God – although if sometimes like this does occur I would think of it more as ‘withdrawing gifts’ – which could, I suppose, include withdrawing his presence – rather than inflicting active pain.

            Another way to think about hell might be to see it as simultaneous with, rather than a prerequisite to, post-mortem conversion.

            What I mean is the picture might be more like a mother who – finally reunited in the last years of her life with her baby she gave up and thought she would never see again – would, despite an objectively ‘improved’ situation, initially feel pained by the sense of lost opportunities and wasted years. Or if she had abused or bullied her child, and refused to admit her guilt, only to find herself both converted and convicted at experiencing the unexpected forgiveness of her child in adulthood, this would be even more painful. This could be overcome, but healing would be required.

            So rather than being part of the conversion toolkit, hell might just be how we feel after being overcome by the love of God, as we guiltily reflect on our past sins and deal with the initial shock of realising just how badly we’ve behaved – the first step of conversion with the unfortunate byproduct of causing the ‘hell’ sensation. Further revelations of God’s love help assure us that, despite our unworthiness, we can be ‘made worthy’, and it is this knowledge which gradually brings us out of hell and heals our souls. Perhaps.

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          • Iainlovejoy says:

            As I understand it, the notion (which I have basically cribbed from George McDonald) is twofold, corresponding to the :outer darkness” and the “refining fire”.
            The “refining fire” is the presence of God which destroys sin. For those for whom sin is a torment, it is light and joy and freedom; for those who cling to sin as their desire and delight, it is a fire burning away at what they think is a fundamental part of themselves, which is why they flee from it.
            The sinful flee God, preferring their own fantasies, personal demons and obsessions to God, and fearing the loss of their sin as loss of themselves. God permits them to flee into the “outer darkness” where they are left with as little of God compatible with their continued existence and only their sinful selves. Someone (I forget who) likens this to a dream or nightmare where nothing is real except the personal horrors summoned up to torment you by one’s own unquiet mind. Another common idea is that what you get starts off as the fantasy you think in your sin you want. This horror is instructive and reforming because it is exactly what the sinner asks for and (they will swiftly – or eventually – realise when experienced) exactly the last thing they actually want.
            The sinner is (ostensibly) abandoned to their sin so that in experiencing it as true horror and seeing it for what it is they may grow to hate it, and thus turn back to God and welcome instead of flee from the refining fire of his presence which will rid them of it.
            I say “ostensibly” abandoned to their sin because it seems to me that the human presence of Jesus in hell is the guarantor that all will be saved: God as Jesus can descend to the dead and be with the dead and preach to them and teach them and lead them through this process back to God because, as Jesus is human and stripped of His divine power and presence, the sinner can listen to Jesus without the barrier of the fearful and burning presence which woyld otherwise blind the sinner to God.

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          • Robert F says:

            Ian,
            No doubt what you say is logically, ethically, theologically sound. But for many of us, our experience, our dreams and nightmares, both waking and sleeping, corroborated by those expressed by myriad other people, some of them thinkers and artists of the most subtle insight, some of them ordinary people, lead us to viscerally fear that logical, ethical, and theological sanity is not the foundation of existence, but at the core of our ordinary world, painful as it exhibits itself to be, is an endless”demonium” (word borrowed from Cormac McCarthy’s last novel, Stella Maris. That is, that the world from top to bottom is irrational and insane, and whatever we perceive as good is at best illusion born of our blinkered vision.

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          • Robert F says:

            Ian,
            My reply immediately above this comment was meant to be places in reply to the comment you made further above regarding the goodness of this world’s creator.

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        • Tom Talbott says:

          I agree with you and Robert F, Joe, concerning this: “The experience of great suffering is [normally] a very inefficient catalyst for personal transformation.” Nor do I view the lake of fire or even Gehenna as places where God inflicts suffering upon us in order transform us into saints. The image of fire in particular is one of purification, not necessarily one of intense suffering. But nonetheless, if I were somehow to suffer from the delusion that a bare hand shoved into a flaming hot fire would cause sensations of intense pleasure, and if I were also rational enough to qualify as a free moral agent, then acting upon that delusion would surely shatter it to pieces.

          Wish I now had more time to discuss these intriguing matters further. But unfortunately, I am now stuck dealing with some important family matters.

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      • Iainlovejoy says:

        As I understand it, the notion (which owes a lot to George McDonald) is twofold, corresponding to the outer darkness and refining fire. The sinful flee God, preferring their own fantasies, personal demons and obsessions to God, and fearing the loss of their sin as loss of themselves. God permits them to flee into the “outer darkness” where they are left with as little of God compatible with their continued existence and only their sinful selves. Someone (I forget who) likens this to a dream or nightmare where nothing is real except the personal horrors summoned up to torment you by one’s own unquiet mind. Another common idea is that what you get starts off as the fantasy you think in your sin you want. This horror is instructive and reforming because it is exactly what the sinner asks for and (they will swiftly or eventually realise) when experienced exactly as they wish,

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    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Joe, I don’t try to reconcile efficacious grace with Gehenna as I am not privy to God’s post-mortem ways. As far as I know, God could very well effect conversion instantaneously. On the other hand, I do not want to rule out that the change of personal orientation in confrontation with the Good might involve real suffering for the impenitent, whether conversion is instantaneous or involves temporal duration. I trust in God’s love and wisdom. 😎

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