A Human Fall From Out of Another Kind of Time

by Jesse Hake

David Bentley Hart on the Meta-Historical Fall

From time to time, over two decades, David Bentley Hart has advanced the idea of an atemporal or meta-historical fall of humanity (and other powers) within which our entire cosmos is enslaved to death and fragmentation. When talking about this concept at a public lecture in Australia during the summer of 2023, Hart stated that he does not “know of any other version of Christianity.”1 And in an interview with Kevin Gregorio earlier that year, Hart commented that “this world, as we know it, from the Big Bang up until today, has been the world of death.”2 Hart’s readers first encountered this notion in his 2005 book The Doors of the Sea, where he references the astonishing concept of “fallen time” and makes striking claims about how we humans have “enslaved creation to spiritual and terrestrial powers hostile to God.”3 He describes “the Christian belief in an ancient alienation from God that has wounded creation in its uttermost depths and reduced cosmic time to a shadowy vestige of the world God truly intends”4 as our universe was estranged from “something far more glorious than the pitiable resources of fallen time could ever yield.”5 Hart spells this out most fully as a basic category of patristic theology:

It is a patristic notion (developed with extraordinary profundity by Maximus the Confessor) that humanity was created as the methorios (the boundary or frontier) between the physical and the spiritual realms, or as the priesthood of creation that unites earth to heaven, and that thus, in the fall of man, all of material existence was made subject to the dominion of death. To say that God elects to fashion rational creatures in his image, and so grants them the freedom to bind themselves and the greater physical order to another master—to say that he who sealed up the doors of the sea might permit them to be opened again by another, more reckless hand—is not to say that God’s ultimate design for his creatures can be thwarted. It is to acknowledge, however, that his will can be resisted by a real and (by his grace) autonomous force of defiance, or can be hidden from us by the history of cosmic corruption, and that the final realization of the good he intends in all things has the form (not simply as a dramatic fiction, for our edification or his glory, nor simply as a paedagogical device on his part, but in truth) of a divine victory.6

During the two decades since The Doors of the Sea, Hart has clearly maintained the same thinking on this topic. In his 2017 essay “The Devil’s March,” he writes:

The fall of rational creation and the conquest of the cosmos by death is something that appears to us nowhere within the course of nature or history; it comes from before and beyond both. We cannot search it out within the closed totality of the damaged world because it belongs to another frame of time, another kind of time, one more real than the time of death. . . . It may seem a fabulous claim that we exist in the long grim aftermath of a primeval catastrophe—that this is a broken and wounded world, that cosmic time is a phantom of true time, that we live in an umbratile interval between creation in its fullness and the nothingness from which it was called, and that the universe languishes in bondage to the “powers” and “principalities” of this age, which never cease in their enmity toward the kingdom of God—but it is not a claim that Christians are free to surrender.7

Hart elaborates in the Gregorio interview:

According to tradition, even natural evil is the result of a world that’s fallen into death. Somehow, that too follows from the creation of moral evil. So in Christian tradition, you don’t just accept ‘the world as it is.’ You take ‘the world as it is’ as a broken, shadowy remnant of what it should have been. But obviously wherever this departure from the divine happened, or whenever, it didn’t happen within terrestrial history. . . . This world, as we know it, from the Big Bang up until today, has been the world of death.

In his Australia lecture, Hart avers that “the claim has always been, for Christians,” that “this cosmos . . . under the archon of this cosmos is not creation as God intended it but creation as enslaved to death” which Hart says must be understood as “an ontological condition.” He goes on to claim that “everything is shattered and torn asunder and involved in mortality which is pain and suffering and estrangement” and that it is simply “the Christian story” that “spiritual creation actually determines the reality of physical, of natural creation” and that this is “why Paul says the glorification of creation comes through the creation that’s revealed in the sons of glory” which is “the restoration of the human and of all the powers.” Saying that “for Paul the whole [of creation] has been deranged and disordered and in Christ has been restored,” Hart concludes: “I don’t know of any other version of Christianity.”

During the questions following this lecture, Hart explains that the human fall takes place within a higher form of time, and he outlines several kinds of time:

There’s chronos which, of course, for Platonism, is the moving image of the aeon [which is] the second level. The aeon is the fullness of time in a kind of spiritual dimension or what we would call the angelic age or the angelic aevum. Then there’s the eternity of God beyond all ages. And I think that it’s clear that for, say, Gregory and many of the church fathers—certainly for Maximus—the fall is something that happens not in time as we know it. The time as we know it is the result of a fall in the spiritual realm of the aeon. That’s how, if there was a fall, that’s where [and] when: there, not before or after, but in a different frame of time altogether—time not as a shadowy succession of momentary reflections of the fullness that can never be fully embodied at any given instant—that’s chronos, the moving image of the aeon, which is the fullness. So it certainly wouldn’t be in conflict with rigorous science. In terms of scientific fact, the world, the best we can say, is 4.5 billion years old. Human beings evolved from lower primates. That clearly is where we come from in terms of the physical history of natural beings, but our spiritual history lies elsewhere. . . . From Maximus, the fall is instantaneous. The moment of creation is when the fall happens. Because of course, sub specie aeternitatis, time is a succession for us, but from the vantage of eternity all things are at one moment. So for Maximus the fall and creation are simultaneous. You know, our spiritual nature at once already rebels even in freely assenting to its own creation. But that’s all speculative. It’s true, but speculative. . . . But whatever the case, if the language of the fall has any meaning, it’s not about something that happened in [empirical] time. It’s something about how time as we know it came to be.

While Hart is clear that this meta-historical fall centers on humanity (as the methorios or hinge-point that Maximus describes), this fall involves all of physical creation as we know it and all of cosmic history. This human fall also drags various other spiritual powers along with it, some of whom are maliciously and manipulatively involved in the entire history of our fallen cosmos. As some were clearly surprised by Hart’s references to the reality of other spiritual beings, Hart unequivocally declares:

I do believe there are spiritual powers and principalities and things like that. . . . Do I believe that there are fallen spirits other than human beings? Yeah, I do. I don’t understand them; I don’t know much about them; but I find that very plausible.

While Hart has refrained from publicly speculating further on this topic, I am tempted to ruminate about other kinds of falls. One conjecture: when humanity fell out of a higher form of angelic time into the impoverished or flattened time that we currently experience, perhaps some but not all angelic powers were drawn into some degree of temptation and confusion by our fall in order to take advantage of humanity within our degenerate form of time and our corruptible embodiment. So there is a little personal surmising for what it’s worth.

All of this provides a remarkably complete and consistent concept maintained by Hart for two decades. He clearly has in view a human fall from one form of time into another where an initial moment of angelic time is experienced by us in the fallen cosmos as billions of years starting with the Big Bang and including the entire history of space-time in which we find ourselves. However, despite providing all of these details over so many years, Hart has not lectured or written about an atemporal human fall in any sustained or focused way. When asked by a reader of his Leaves in the Wind newsletter (August 31, 2022) if we should then “favor the ‘atemporal fall’ view,” Hart replies, “Well, I certainly do,” but, when asked if he could “briefly describe what you understand or hold the ‘atemporal fall’ to be,” he responds, “no, not briefly.” Finally, with a request “for any particularly good reflections on it,” Hart points to Sergius Bulgakov’s book The Bride of the Lamb. Although Hart insists that “I don’t know of any other version of Christianity,” when asked to give the best sources for his understanding of the matter, he turns to some of Christian history’s most challenging thinkers, such as Bulgakov and Origen, St Gregory of Nyssa and St Maximus the Confessor.

Patristic Witness to the Meta-Historical Fall

During the summer 2023 Australia visit mentioned above, as Hart fielded multiple questions on this topic, he declares, “Okay, I’m an Origenist” and then explains how “church fathers like Maximus . . . tended to think in three kinds of time.”

In his great work On the Making of Man—recently translated by John Behr under what he maintains is the correct title, On the Human Image of God—Gregory of Nyssa argues that ‘Adam’ in the first chapter of Genesis refers not to a particular person but to the fullness of humanity across all of history:

When the account says that God made the human being, all humankind is indicated by the indefinite character of the term; for the creature was not here also called ‘Adam’, as the narrative that follows relates, but the name given to the created human is not the particular but of the universal. Thus, we are led by the universal name of the nature to suppose something such as this, that by divine foreknowledge and power all humanity is included in the first formation. . . . The entire plenitude of humanity was included by the God of all, by the power of his foreknowledge, as in one body. . . . For this reason the whole was called one human being, because to the power of God nothing has either passed or is to come, but even that which is looked for is embraced equally with the present by his all-embracing activity.8

Here and elsewhere, Gregory understands the image of God as being made up of every human person understood as belonging to one body, ultimately the body of Christ. And this one body is the ‘Adam’ referred to in Genesis 1 which includes every human from across all time (all that has “passed or is to come” and “even that which is looked for”). As Behr points out, such an idea was widespread, and “Origen understood Paul to assert that ‘Adam is Christ’ (Princ. 4.3.7).”

It is not clear whether Gregory believed this universal Adam was a subject that can be said to have fallen, or if he only thought of the fall in terms of the particular or historical Adam of the subsequent chapters in Genesis. Consider this passage from Gregory’s On the Inscriptions of the Psalms:

There was a time when the dance of the rational nature was one, and looked to the one leader of the chorus, and, in its movement in relation to his command, interpreted the choral song in relation to the harmony exhibited thence. But later, when sin occurred, it put an end to that divine concord of the chorus, when it poured the slipperiness of deceit at the feet of the first humans who used to sing in chorus with the angelic powers and caused the Fall, wherefore man was separated from the angels.9

Johannes Zachhuber notes the intimations of creaturely pre-existence in this passage and comments:

It is perhaps not too much to say that, in spite of his reference to the first human beings, Gregory’s argument in this passage presupposes a quasi-Origenist conception of pre-existent rational beings. Evidently, the Genesis story is understood allegorically when, a little later in the same context, Gregory writes that ‘the one who has fallen might again be restored’ (ibid. 11.23–4) thus equating Adam with ‘man’ in general. At the same time, however, it is clear that Gregory (deliberately, I assume) stops short of committing himself expressly to this interpretation.10

While Gregory may not explicitly state the specific concept of a meta-historical human fall, it is certainly the case that he understood the day-to-day functions and physical laws of the entire cosmos to have been altered by the human fall or at least in preparation for the fall. All of this becomes definite in Maximus the Confessor.

Jordan Wood has recently defended the conclusion of Hans Urs Von Balthasar that Maximus considers the human fall “a prehistorical or meta­historical reality.”11 As we heard from Hart above, “for Maximus the fall and creation are simultaneous” because, while “time is a succession for us,” when considered “from the vantage of eternity all things are at one moment.” Wood devotes an extended section in his book The Whole Mystery of Christ: Creation as Incarnation in Maximus Confessor covering this question and defending Balthasar’s reading, which is clearly also shared by Hart. (Some of this is summarized by Wood in this post as well.) Wood argues that Maximus understood this fallen world as a distorted or false creation that was the result both of God’s true creation and of the human fall:

The Fall appears coeval with this world’s generation because, in an absurd yet real sense, it is this world’s generation. Adam introduced “another beginning of becoming,” recall, which means that creation as it seems to us is not yet creation. We drive “the nature of all created things away from existence,” away from true creation. The Fall does not merely happen at the moment of creation; it is itself the falling away from creation. The Fall is false incarnation, anticreation. Adam errs in ignorance of God, the world, and himself. The portrait of the world for whose existence he lends his very person imagines pure finitude as the ultimate object of rational desire. He eats of the Tree, and “by partaking of this fruit he set in motion the whole cycle of bodily nourishment, thereby exchanging life for death, having created a living death in himself for the whole temporal duration of the present age.” . . .

And so we become counterfeit creators of a world of bare phenomena, of absolute limit, of false beginnings (merely corporeal birth) and ends (death, “the corruption of becoming”). For Maximus as for Origen and Gregory of Nyssa, nature’s hideous “mutation” in the direction of merely finite phenomena—whence come passion, corruption, death—was not something God created in Adam; “It was rather man who made it and knew it, creating the freely chosen sin through his disobedience.”12

Finally, a supramundane fall is clearly asserted by John Scottus Eriugena, who cites both Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus extensively in his own writings. For Eriugena, “time itself is a function of our fallen state and the perfected state is timeless so there is a sense in which perfected human nature already is one with God and always has been one with God.”13 Properly speaking, this human fall for is not from outside of time but from a higher form of time from which fallen time is a kind of reduction. Dermot Moran explains:

That is not to say that time is unreal, rather there are two kinds of time. Eriugena holds that God proceeds into time in the creation of all things (Ill. 678c-d), so that creation is a self-manifestation of the eternal in time. This means that God really did intend to generate the temporal domain. Yet Eriugena speaks as if there is a ‘true’ or special time in which creatures are truly themselves. Another corrupting, ‘deviant’, time is introduced by the fan of human nature. Strictly speaking, there are not two times, but the one time seen in two different ways.14

With all this, what do we say to Hart’s insistence on a meta-historical human fall? Is it some kind of esoteric belief, or is it simply the only version of the Christian faith that has existed from the start and “not a claim that Christians are free to surrender” as Hart has written? Clearly, a case can be made that Origen, Gregory Nyssen, and Maximus the Confessor would have recognized the concept of a meta-historical or pre-cosmic human fall as the clear teaching of the Apostle Paul. If this is the case, why does it sound so exotic and foreign to most contemporary Christians, and why is there so little written about it that is available in English?

Contemporary Advocacy of the Meta-Historical Fall

One reason is that modern Christians are not very good at seeing points of contact or alignment between pre-modern categories of thought and the theories of modern science. We tend to assume that the categories of thought brought to us by modern science have simply replaced any pre-modern ways of seeing and understanding reality and that they two cannot be compatible. Another part of the challenge here is that this concept of a meta-historical human fall has always been conveyed in poetic, mythological, and metaphysical language that has become increasingly foreign to any of us in the modern world and increasingly confusing to imagine as compatible with modern science and its findings about cosmology and the biological origins of life. Surprisingly little writing on the topic exists in English unless one turns to the mythopoetic. Some such references should be very familiar to most Christian readers. In the “The Ballad of the White Horse,” G.K. Chesterton writes:

For the end of the world was long ago,
And all we dwell to-day
As children of some second birth,
Like a strange people left on earth
After a judgment day.

C. S. Lewis writes in Mere Christianity and several other places about the ache of joy as a sign to us that we are all clearly “made for another world.” J. R. R. Tolkien wrote stories of a “Straight Road” kept open only for the Elves so that they could continue to sail their ships along the pathway of the once-flat sea and into what is now our sky. The bending of our world into its current reduced shape took place in Tolkien’s stories at the downfall of Númenor. This shrinking of our world into its current shape cut us off from Aman and the realm of the Valar (see Akallabêth: The Downfall of Númenor in The Silmarillion for one depiction of this by Tolkien).

What we do not have in English, however, is material that unpacks the connections between such a mythopoetic theology of a cosmic fall with modern science. For his own part, Hart clearly favors Bulgakov as the most recent thinker to have addressed the topic at any length in formal scholarly terms. However, in some brief email correspondence, he has also recommended other sources, including Christopher C. Knight’s 2022 book Eastern Orthodoxy and the Science-Theology Dialogue. Knight writes:

One example of this aspect of patristic thinking is related to the way in which, as we have seen, some in that era believed, with Gregory of Nyssa, that our present body has become coarse and solid through the Fall but will, at the general resurrection, recover its ‘prelapsarian’ state. This was understood, according to [Panayiotis] Nellas, in terms of the way in which our existence in the paradisal state should not be identified with our current biological make-up, which is an aspect of the ‘garments of skin’ given to us by God. Rather, as he puts it, God, by ‘allowing man to dress himself in biological life, the fruit of sin . . . redirected death, which was also the fruit of sin, against biological life, and thus by death is put to death not man but the corruption which clothes him’. In a related way, the Fall was often seen, in the patristic era, as being a transition not only into our present biological state but also into time as we now experience it. As Philip Sherrard has put it, it was a lapse ‘into a materialized space-time universe’. In this perspective, the expulsion from Paradise involved much more of a discontinuity than is often appreciated, since not only was our ‘original’ life not biological life but it was, in addition, not even a temporal existence in the usual sense of that term.

This kind of understanding of the character of our unfallen state has been explored by modern Orthodox scholars like Sergius Bulgakov, who have suggested that the Fall should be seen not as a historical event but as a ‘meta-historical’ one.15

In another email, Hart notes that a 2017 article by Russian paleontologist Alexander V. Khramov16 was “on the right path.” Khramov argues that all of the church fathers, up through the early Augustine, subscribed to what he calls “alterism”: they all agreed that the physical laws of the universe were altered by the human fall. In contrast, the view that the human fall left the physical laws of the world unchanged, which he terms “perseverism,” was invented by Augustine late in his career and eventually became the default assumption of most later theology. Khramov argues that we should return to alterism and that, in fact, “the Big Bang should be interpreted not as the first creative act of God, but as the first cognizable manifestation of the human Fall; it ruined primordial creation in a catastrophic manner.”17

In correspondence with Khramov over the past couple of years, I have learned that, following a successful career as a paleontologist and author in Russia, he has started work on a second Ph.D. in intellectual history and focusing on the development of evolutionary theory within the sciences. (I’ve also learned that Khramov has started work, with some partners, on an English translation of his book in Russian about human origins, and that he is seeking a publisher for this English translation. If you know of any publishing options, I would be glad to put you in contact with Khramov so that I can eventually read more of his work in English.) Khramov notes that one existing book on this topic that makes a similar argument to his 2017 article is the 1996 book by Bishop Basil Rodzianko called The Theory of the Big Bang and the Faith of the Holy Fathers. This was written after six months that Basil Rodzianko spent studying and lecturing on this topic at the Holy Trinity Sergius Monastery in Russian near the end of his career. However, although the last part of Basil’s career was as a bishop in the United States, this book has also never been translated into English. (As an aside with my personal opinion, the failure to translate such a book strikes me as a shame on American Orthodoxy which tends to be profoundly ignorant of the depth of the intellectual and theological inheritance of which it, nonetheless, loves to boast.)

Using a combination of three automated translation tools (Google, ChatGPT, and DeepL) on the Russian text, I translated the entire text three times and read through it laboriously (and very much wishing for a translation based on good human scholarship). This, however, is a sample from my own unscholarly labors using automated tools:

This world, with the “second” universe, with the heavens . . . arose as a result of a catastrophic separation from God’s world—as a result of the “big bang.” . . . We know from Holy Scripture about the Fall and the exile of the first people from Paradise. This tragic event can be understood today from a natural and scientific point of view as part of the “Big Bang” theory that is accepted by modern science as a model of the universe. . . . I am often asked: But if our world is not the true world, if it is just a result of the tragic fall away from God’s creation, then what should be our attitude toward it? Can it—and should it—be accepted and loved, or should it be rejected as completely evil and the dwelling place of the prince of this world? . . . “This” world and “that” world are one and the same, but of a different quality. . . . The world is not only interesting, the world is endlessly beautiful and one must love its beauty, its development, its evolution towards perfection and goodness, one must love mankind as well as all of God’s lower creatures—everything and everybody—struggling with evil both in oneself and outside.

Turning, finally then, to Bulgakov’s writing on this topic in The Bride of the Lamb, his case is very much in line with the summaries that Hart has given over the past couple of decades. Bulgakov says of the human fall:

An event is described that lies beyond our history, although at its boundary. Being connected with our history, this event inwardly permeates it. But this event cannot be perceived in the chain of empirical events, for it is not there. It took place, but beyond the limits of this world: After the expulsion of our progenitors from Eden, its gates were locked, and an angel with a fiery sword protects this boundary of being that has become transcendent for us. But this event took place precisely in this world, or at least for this world.18

When Bulgakov writes that the human fall “took place precisely in this world” and “for this world,” he is pointing to the fact that all of cosmic history, as we know it currently, is the actual ongoing outworking of the collective human fall. We are participating, each of us, in Adam’s collective and meta-historical fall, but the very world in which we are each coming to be is shaped from its start to finish by the collective fall—a fall in which we both contribute and suffer alongside the entire universe.

In another key point of common ground between Hart and Bulgakov, we see Bulgakov maintaining that there are various modes of time:

Time is the abstract measure of temporal being; however, it is not the unique measure. . . . There can be several times, as different modes of creaturely or temporal being. There is angelic time (perhaps with differentiation of orders in the assembly of angels) and human time (with differentiation of times into epochs). What is fundamental here is the determination of temporality as becoming, for which time is the form or measure. Therefore, in general, one must speak not of the beginning of time (which is what is usually done) but of the emergence of temporality, where time appears in a derivative manner, by a kind of reflex as it were. Should one speak of God’s creation of the world in time or of his creation of time itself?19

Clearly, the doctrine of a meta-historical human fall involves topics that require vast interdisciplinary considerations across the realms of science, cosmology, philosophy, metaphysics, poetry, and theology. In a day and age when Ph.D. studies involve more and more hyper-specialization and when very few scholars are left alive who can or will work across disciplines at high levels, we should not be surprised that very few thinkers and writers are willing to address such a topic. Moreover, outside the halls of academia, our shared imaginative vision and our categories of thought simply do not give us the means to engage with this topic. Even if Hart is correct that this is the only kind of Christianity that time has given to us, we are no longer capable of receiving this faith or of articulating it to the world in which we live. Christianity, in some real sense, may be lost to all of us. As Christians, this should not be a great shock or surprise, and I would expect it to be true of every age of fallen time in some sense or another. What age of this world has ever been capable of receiving and articulating the Christian faith? If we, who live long after God has been proclaimed dead, have our blind spots, should that surprise us?

Conclusion

But I should try to conclude. I’ll do so by seeking to summarize my understanding of what is meant by the meta-historical human fall. It depends on the teaching that God’s omnipotence is the perfect offer of free and creative participation in God’s own infinite life. A corollary to this is that, just as God cannot create a square circle, God cannot create free rational spirits without the possibility of these spirits choosing (within the contingent limits of creaturely finitude) to make horrible and distorted lives apart from God. Finally, this teaching about a meta-historical human fall depends on the idea that all humans are connected in one body across time, while still remaining individual persons. Humanity as a whole has collectively made this fallen world as we chose, at the moment of our collective creation, to find a life apart from God, and as we each currently act upon this collective choice by attempting to find and shape a life separate from God within this world that we received as a result of our collective flight from God. Our broken and twisted cosmos is not created by God but is a false and powerless distortion of God’s creation that we have made out of incomplete and warped fragments of the good creation that we are still capable of making with God as we participate in God’s life. Hart hates any variation on “the best of all possible worlds” kind of thinking, and insists that the world of empirical history is not created by God but is a realm of broken, incomplete, and flattened distortions of God’s creation.

Such claims raise many questions of course. Is there anything created without God? Is this world evil and separated from God? Does this mean that embodiment and matter are inherently evil? How can humans be responsible for any suffering and evil that happened before any humans existed within empirical time (i.e. how can we be responsible for animal suffering before we had even shown up within evolutionary history)? Why would God make creatures who could make such a terrible and smashed distortion of God’s creation, and why would God not stop such creatures once they start to try to do something so terrible? Does this require a belief in the pre-existence of human souls? All of these understandable questions have answers, but we don’t have time to go through them.

In short, nothing good or lasting is created without God but only terrible deceptions and dead-ends made out of unfinished and broken pieces of God’s good creation. Nonetheless, every event and creature within fallen time has some seed of divine reason and purpose deep within it so that nothing is ever fully separated from God but is from God and participates in God’s creation to some degree. Every detail of fallen history is connected from within to God’s life and will ultimately be made complete and connected again by all of those creatures who are involved. Several of these questions come from a failure to understand the true nature of goodness, power, and freedom. Again, omnipotence is when God goes willingly into the grave to extend the offer of participation in God’s infinite life from within our rejection of it. A tyrant has no power at all. If Christ on the cross simply called down fire on those killing him, nothing would have been accomplished at all. One simple way to consider the nature of true power is to ask what kind of power makes an enemy into a friend.

Humans (and all free rational spirits to some degree) participate freely in God’s life and creation. Our shared human capacities form a methorios (a point of contact and connection, like a hinge) that touches and connects all aspects and realms of creation. (Note here that human nature overlaps with various angelic natures in a wide variety of ways and that human nature also overlaps with the nature of the entire world that we perceive and which sustains our physical bodies with sunlight and with the movements of the elements.) Therefore, when humanity was created (as a new kind of free rational spirit), our response to the invitation to participate in the life of God and creation was a pivotal moment in the story of creation. All of the other angelic powers were attentive to our collective first steps as creatures (and evidently responded in a wild variety of ways). Sadly, as a unified and whole body of human souls, we collectively resisted God’s invitation to become ourselves and sought after other modes of being that did not require participation in God’s life and creation. This corporate human resistance, then, is the contingent and confused state of being into which we each are born within empirical history. Our resistance as sub-creators created a flattened out form of space and time and distorted the true creation of God for a limited period in which everything connected to us is coming to be within a state of misery and fragmentation. This does not mean that embodiment is evil but simply that embodiment subject to decay is not true and substantive embodiment. As Paul writes:

For the earnest expectation of creation anxiously awaits the revelation of the sons of God. For creation was made subordinate to pointlessness, not willingly but because of the one who subordinated it, in the hope that creation itself will also be liberated from decay into the freedom of the glory of God’s children. For we know that all creation groans together and labors together in birth pangs, up to this moment. (Rom 8:19-22; Hart translation)

Our fall together into a simply chronological kind of time was from out of a fuller and more interconnected kind of time with even more potential for becoming ourselves together than what is offered to us in the flattened time that we now know. However, even fallen time is a gift that allows us each to enter into and take up our own existences within a sequence of connections no matter how broken and disjointed these connections might be. Moreover, God remains with us in this world of bodily decay and death, and announces to us that “the Kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21; Hart translation). We are called, therefore, to live and act in accordance with God’s presence in every moment of fallen time, and we can do so in the hope that, even in this lifetime, our service and repentance and thanksgiving might begin to make complete all that we have left unnoticed as well as all that we have actively sought to hurt and destroy in our own pain, selfishness, and confusion.

End Notes

[1] From “David Bentley Hart on Suffering,” Gospel Conversations Conference, first talk (posted on August 28, 2023).

[2] From an interview recorded with Kevin Gregorio, “‘That Thou Art’ with Dr David Bentley Hart” (posted on February 6, 2023).

[3] David Bentley Hart, The Doors of the Sea (2005), 22.

[4] Ibid.

[5] Ibid., 68-69. Cf. Paul Griffiths’ discussion of fallen time in his book Decreation (2014), 89-93. Griffiths, following St Augustine, places the responsibility for the corruption of time on the angelic rebellion (131-135). Before the fall of the angels, cosmic time was systolic; afterwards metronomic. This move forces Griffiths to posit Eden as an unfallen utopia surrounded by fallen time yet, by God’s grace, immune to its ravages and damage: “Eden: the paradise in which human creatures and some others are at first located, and from which they are ejected consequent upon the human fall. Eden is distinct from the cosmos because it is not the place of the angels, and because it is a paradisial enclave within a cosmos-become-world already devastated by the angelic fall” (4). Adamic sin resulted in the expulsion of humanity from its idyllic systolic existence into the metronomic time of the fallen cosmos, now determined by corruption and death. Also see “Thralls of the Metronome.”

[6] Ibid., 62-63.

[7] David Bentley Hart, “The Devil’s March: Creatio ex Nihilo, the Problem of Evil, and a Few Dostoyevskian Meditations,” in Creation Ex Nihilo (2017). A revised version of the essay is available in Hart’s book Theological Territories (2020).

[8] Op. hom. 16.16-18.

[9] Inscrip. II.6.60.

[10] Johannes Zachhuber, Human Nature in Gregory of Nyssa (2014), 181.

[11] Jordan Wood, The Whole Mystery of Christ: Creation as Incarnation in Maximus Confessor (2022), 155; quoting Hans Urs Von Balthasar, Cosmic Liturgy: The Universe According to Maximus the Confessor, 186.

[12] Wood, 168-169. Quotes are from Maximus.

[13] Dermot Moran and Adrian Guiu, “John Scottus Eriugena,” The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Winter 2021).

[14] Dermot Moran, “Time, Space and Matter in John Scottus Eriugena: An Examination of Eriugena’s Account of the Physical World,” in At The Heart of the Real (1992), 93.

[15] Christopher C. Knight, Eastern Orthodoxy and the Science-Theology Dialogue (2022), 54-55.

“If it is understood that it is not the fallen state of nature and of man which is natural, but their pre-fallen and paradisaical state, and that it is this state which expresses the will of God, then a quite different attitude to the relationship between the moral and natural law will prevail, and quite different conclusions may be drawn from it as a consequence. According to this latter attitude, which is that of the eastern Christian tradition, what is regarded as man’s natural life, and so as the norm providing the basis for the moral law, is that of the original creation. Man’s life as it is now, in this world, and the biological processes to which he is subject, are not regarded as natural, but as a consequence of a breach in nature, a declension from the natural state, and an entering into conditions that are abnormal and corrupt. And, it is understood, this breach and dislocation in man’s natural state—this fall into a materialized space-time universe—has not only resulted in a loss of spiritual vision and in the contracting of the human mind to the perspectives of a fundamentally unreal world; it has also introduced a corresponding alteration in the laws of nature itself, so that these too are now tainted by something of the abnormality and corruption which vitiates human life itself. They are not these laws as they are ordained by God. They are these laws deformed and denaturalized by the fall of Adam—a fall which itself is profoundly ‘unnatural’ and contrary to the will of God.” Philip Sherrard, “The Sexual Relationship in Christian Thought,” Studies in Comparative Religion, 5 (1971): 12.

“Holy fathers, delving into the biblical texts, showed that the Fall represented a cosmic catastrophe, an eclipse of the paradisiacal mode of being and emergence of a new mode of existence in the whole universe.” Olivier Clément, “Le sens de la terre (Notes de cosmologie orthodoxe),Contacts 19 (1967): 252-323; quoted by Khramov (below).

[16] Alexander V. Khramov, “Fitting Evolution into Christian Belief: An Eastern Orthodox Approach,” International Journal of Orthodox Theology 8:1 (2017): 75-105. For numerous quotations from the Eastern fathers that support the alterist position, see Hieromonk Damascene, “Created in Incorruption,” The Orthodox Word (2008).

[17] Ibid, 88.

[18] Sergius Bulgakov, The Bride of the Lamb (2001), 170-171.

[19] Ibid., 70-71. Also see Charles Andrew Gottshall, “Sergius Bulgakov on Evolution and the Fall.”

* * *

Jesse Hake grew up in Taiwan, earned an M.Litt. in history from the University of Saint Andrews in Scotland. He is married with three children and is currently a director of ClassicalU.com. He and his family attend the Holy Apostles Orthodox Church parish in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. His personal reflections on theology and other topics can be found on his substack Copious Flowers.

This entry was posted in David B. Hart, Patristic and Byzantine theology, Theology and tagged , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

81 Responses to A Human Fall From Out of Another Kind of Time

  1. Rob says:

    Wow. More on this, please.

    Liked by 3 people

  2. David says:

    Thanks for this reflection.

    Could you please say a little more about the temporal nature of pre-fallen humanity?

    If the decision to fall took place in the context of a genuine “before” and “after” – i.e. humanity starts to exist, then learns it has a moral choice with the potential to flourish, and then chooses to fall – then I’m not sure what would separate this view from someone who thought that Adam and Eve (or even a capital H ‘Humanity’) used to exist in their own perfect pocket universe, then fell, then they got sucked through a wormhole into this bad universe. That is, if the ‘supra-temporal’ decision actually ultimately occurs within a genuine temporal order of its own (albeit “a different kind of time” which somehow feels qualitatively different and more filled with God’s presence) then I’m not sure what it actually solves.

    OR is the decision genuinely outside of time altogether – like all human beings have a kind of atemporal aspect to themselves which somehow falls. Is that more what you mean? (so, if we hadn’t supratemporally fallen in that one atemporal moment, we still would have had a temporal existence as we do now, only it wouldn’t have been marked by falleness and decay and would be more like the lossless systolic time Griffiths speaks of”

    Also if humanity falls as a whole – such that literally all humanity does not simply suffer the consequences of the fall, but is in some way supra-temporally responsible for it – could you say something about where this leaves the humanity of Jesus? And – for those who hold to the immaculate conception or similar – Mary? And how does this fit in with whatever solution you have to the problem of how humans – who we normally think of as distinct selves – could collectively fall?

    Also could we that ‘personhood’ or ‘creatures’ as a whole fell, rather than just humanity? (I know this leaves the problem of the apparently unfallen angels… but one could simply deny that even the angels are *completely* unfallen, or appeal to whatever solution you have for allowing Jesus and possibly Mary to be unfallen despite being part of a humanity which is supposed to have collectively fallen)

    Liked by 2 people

    • Jesse says:

      That’s a rather long list of very excellent questions. I’m relaying a range of closely-related ideas from various theologians. My own opinions are not worth much. However, I’m convinced by the idea that we humans fall at the same moment in which we are created within some un-fallen higher mode of time. Not all modes of time are sequential. In fact, I doubt that temporality is experienced in a strictly sequential way except within our fall. The fall is not a matter of “responsibility” but of a shared trajectory in which we each participate as one body. Angels are each a genus, and humans are a single multi-personed angel that opts from the first moment of its life to try out life on its own. This doesn’t change our nature or entirely separate us from the life that we’ve been offered and have started to take up. Every one of us can give birth to Christ and become Christ in imitation of Mary and her Son.

      Like

      • Jesse says:

        Sergei Bulgakov has good bit to say about various kinds of time as various ways of concretely experiencing creaturely temporality. But another proponent of the meta-historical fall is Olivier Clément who wrote *Transfiguring Time: Understanding Time in the Light of the Orthodox Tradition* which is a help here. Elsewhere, Clément wrote: “Holy fathers, delving into the biblical texts, showed that the Fall represented a cosmic catastrophe, an eclipse of the paradisiacal mode of being and emergence of a new mode of existence in the whole universe.” [Olivier Clément, “Le sens de la terre (Notes de cosmologie orthodoxe)”, Contacts 19 (1967), pp. 252–323. Translation by Alexander V. Khramov.] Hart and Wood have both also have shared a good bit about non-sequential experiences of temporality. These questions about time and temporality are key in what I’ve found.

        Like

  3. Tom says:

    Thanks Jesse! We so appreciate it!

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Ed H. says:

    “As Behr points out, such an idea was widespread, and “Origen understood Paul to assert that ‘Adam is Christ’ (Princ. 4.3.7).” ”

    Can you please provide the reference where Father Behr makes these claims?

    Thank you, and many thanks for this interesting article.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Tony says:

    This topic is endlessly fascinating, and yet, I know I can’t comprehend most of it. Whatever the case, I’m extremely grateful for this blog which has broadened my horizons on trying to understand God.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. Robert F says:

    Acknowledging that the blog post mentions that there are questions with answers regarding this matter that are not covered in this summary of the idea of “a human fall from out of another kind of time”, it seems to me the chief advantage (and an immense advantage it is) this idea holds over the Biblical “literalist” view of Creation and Fall, in terms of explaining the existence of evil in our world, is that it does not contradict scientific cosmology and biological evolution, which render the “literalist” view completely untenable. It does so by making a completely unfalsifiable assertion of another higher, greater realm of existence about which science could not possibly have anything evidential to say, since no scientific evidence for the existence of such a realm could be produced. But as far as being a defense of the goodness of God in view of the evil in creation, if such a defense is what it is meant in part or whole to do, I don’t see how it has any advantage over the “literalist” view. This is still God’s world, and whatever happens in it is the result of potentialities that he incorporated into it at its creation, however many or few removes that creation may be from our direct experience and observation. Based on our experience of suffering and evil in this realm of fallenness, however it came about, it is not irrational or wrongheaded to question the goodness, and therefore the existence, of God; “a fall from out of another kind of time” does not seem to do anything to alter the legitimacy of critical protests based on our experience of Creation against the goodness or existence of God.

    Like

  7. Jesse says:

    Hart is opposed to theodicies, and I don’t think that this atemporal fall concept is intended as such from him or other proponents. On the topic of evil, the real question is the nature of human freedom and what it means to create free rational spirits who participate in their own creation. This is a related but larger question that Hart writes a good bit about in his book You Are Gods.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Robert F says:

      I’m a layperson, without theological or philosophical training….but I still have questions. It seems to me that when someone raises moral objections against other thinker’s/theologian’s conceptions of God, as Hart does, for instance against those of infernalists and the kind of Thomist that he calls manualist, there is an implied objection against the moral justifications of God those thinkers/theologians hold, which in turn would seem to mean that the objections are rooted in some kind of moral understanding of the ways of God that involves theodicy. Of course, moral concerns, rather than theological ones, may be what is involved in such critiques, and a theological defense or understanding of God’s ways would then not be pertinent to the critique. It seems to me though, that if this is the case, then morality becomes more primary than, and even separate from, theology for the thinker who forms criticisms like the aforementioned ones. How does one reject the moral conception of God of others without having an at least an unspoken theodicy position oneself, if only by way of negation. Am I completely missing the point here? And if so, could you explain where in terms that an theologically untutored layperson could understand? Or is this only a discussion for those with at least specialized training and understanding?

      Like

      • Robert F says:

        ,,,,at least some specialized….

        Like

        • Jesse says:

          Robert, I’m also just a lay person with no technical training (other than a little history training). I think that The Doors of the Sea by Hart makes the case that we only have the degree of moral indignation that a character like Ivan (in The Brothers Karamazov) represents because of Christ’s witness within history. Ivan’s moral indignation is something profoundly Christian. Separately, theodicies as some kind of technical justification of God all fall short because they tend to try to make evil “reasonable” or “meaningful” whereas evil is simply irrational and God ultimately vanquishes it entirely (with our participation in Christ).

          Liked by 1 person

          • Robert F says:

            Thank you for your response, Jesse.

            I don’t know enough about pre-Christian societies or religions to know if Ivan’s moral indignation could have arisen in any of them or not, but it may well be so.

            Evil, death, and suffering make no sense, they are meaningless. I think that is why Albert Camus considered himself an absurdist, and an atheist. If I were an atheist I would sit more easily with the assertion that these things are meaningless, but somehow as a theist I can’t. That is probably a fault in myself rather than the assertion.

            Thanks again.

            Liked by 1 person

      • Robert Fortuin says:

        Robert the distinction between the moral and theological doesn’t hold here as it is precisely a morally hideous theology which is the focus of the critique we make against infernalists. All forms of theodicy seek to explain and justify evil to accord it with the Good. This is morally and theologically bankrupt.

        Like

        • Robert F says:

          In that case, it seems we must have more accurate knowledge and understanding of the moral than the theological. Here it is the moral which delimits the understanding of God as good. That may well be, but it puts morality, not theology, in the driver’s seat, so to speak.

          Thank you for your reply, Robert.

          Like

          • Robert Fortuin says:

            The account of Jesus the Christ is quite clear in regards to both morality and theology, methinks. He is the definitive revelation that the God is the Good.

            Like

          • Jordan Parsons says:

            It does seem to me that morality, in all cases, should have primacy over theology- or anything else for that matter. Morality, as expressed and embodied in Christ, is perhaps the means by which we transcend fallen, temporal creation. This may be a theological claim, but only incidentally. It is a moral claim first.

            Like

  8. DBH says:

    Dear Jesse,

    This is very good and very thorough. I have to point out one misstatement, though. When discussing my views, you write:

    “As humanity fell out of a higher form of angelic time into the impoverished or flattened time that we currently experience, some but not all angelic powers, were evidently drawn into some degree of temptation and confusion by our fall so that some of these powers would take advantage of humanity within our degenerate form of time and our corruptible embodiment.”

    I have never said anything like that. I have no views regarding the relationship between a human fall and some fall of other powers or spirits or angels. Of course, if the traditional view of Origen’s teachings is correct, he would have seen the distinction as invalid, as once we were all just intelligences of the same kind. But that’s neither here nor there. Whatever the case, I have no beliefs regarding angelic powers being tempted or confused by human sin.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Jesse says:

      Thank you for clarifying that. Looking back over it, I see that it was misleading of me to put my own impressions directly under a quote from you. Not intentional on my part, but not as careful as I should be in such writing. (I’ll talk to Fr. Aidan Kimel about editing this portion with a few additional words to make it clear that those are my speculations and not my attempt to summarize anything you said.)

      Like

      • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

        Jesse’s revision of the relevant paragraph has been inserted.

        Liked by 1 person

        • DBH says:

          Cool.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Daniel Pigeon says:

            Hi David!

            Nice to meet your acquaintance via the comment section of Jesse’s brilliant post and Al’s excellent blog.

            I have a question and it’s one that probably won’t come as a surprise for Jesse and Al as it’s something that I’ve also asked them about. For context, I was invited to a reading group of “You Are Gods” almost two years ago. The invitation proved to be something life-changing in my faith journey of which I’m deeply thankful to you and this community for.

            My question is this: are we God? Is all of creation not just simply united to the Logos but the actual Logos? That we are the second person of the Trinity condescended/emanated from the eternal into the temporal? Ought the Church to see ourselves directly in Jesus as a mirror of reality without any sort of qualification which includes his ascension: seeing the eternal rather than the temporal as true reality? And that the eternal in some amazing way is our already actualized “now” which includes us as God?

            This was the mind blowing impression that I started to have as I read YAG, I would be so thankful to hear if I’m anywhere near on the right track. In a Christian Century interview titled “What We Think We Know About God” you defined theosis as, “..it’s to become God with a capital G.”

            Part of the reason that I’m asking here is that Jesse’s work on atemporal fall has been instrumental for me on this path. I understand “another kind of time” in the ultimate sense to mean eternity which is actually a reality completely beyond space and time. In Amb 10.48 Maximus says that we “become uncreated”. In the logic of Origen, if it’s our end to become uncreated then this was our beginning (hence the reality of an atemporal fall).

            It’s also my understanding that to say “we are God/Logos” doesn’t include the destruction/absorption of the individual person. Another way of understanding “individual person” is “Logois”. So essentially we are individual Logois (all of creation as incarnation actually) in the divine sea of Logos, face to face with our Abba in the communion of Holy Spirit.

            All that to say, this topic brings me a lot of joy but it’s also something that I need to ask for clarification to see if I’m anywhere near on the right track! Are we God? 😀

            Thank you kindly, David! And to you as well Jesse and Al!

            Sincerely,

            Daniel Pigeon

            Like

          • Daniel P. says:

            David, in your review of John Behr’s translation of “On First Principles” you said, “Origen taught merely that God’s creative and rational intentions and principles are with him from everlasting, in his foreknowledge..”

            Based on other things that I’ve heard you since say, I was wondering if you might express this differently now? I think it’s plausible you might agree that our being is not just merely the result of an eternal idea/intention for our creation in space in time. Rather, according to the logic of eternity highlighted by Origen, if it’s our end to become God in the eternal and infinite then this was also our beginning and ultimately is our transcendent now. We have always been God. Atemporal fall exists as the expression of the freedom to love in the embrace of our cruciform ontology and evil’s finite containment through incarnation/atemporal-fall when we reject these things.

            I think both you and I have been influenced and owe a lot to Jordan Wood on this! I noticed that after his book came out that you began to use his language emphasizing the importance to “take Maximus at his word.”

            I’ve certainly learned a lot from both of you so again, thank you and to everyone who is a part of this community!

            Like

          • DBH says:

            I don’t remember the review, but I think you’re quoting me trying to lay out one of John’s points. My own view and my own reading of Origen are not at issue there.

            Like

          • Daniel P. says:

            Ultimately what I’ve posted in this thread I would consider to be my understanding of Origen, to the best of my ability. If you felt like you had time would you be willing to offer a critique and/or further reflection? I ask simply because I think it’s an exciting dynamic of the Gospel that I didn’t realize existed before, that we are God, and I’m eager to dig more into it. Thanks for the consideration, David!

            Like

          • Daniel P. says:

            The way you spoke of the temporal and eternal in your review with the idea of everlasting intentions reminded me of this, David: “..even as he chose us in him *before the foundation of the world*, that we should be holy and blameless before him.” ~Ephesians 1:4 (with emphasis).

            What you wrote is valid and reflected in scripture. What’s amazing about Origen is that he really shifts our usual focus from the temporal to the logic of the eternal and infinite as transcendent true reality.

            “Jesus is God become man” might be a good summary of a lot of John’s work. “Become” here denotes eternity, that the temporal part is nothing less than the eternal whole (hat-tip to F.W.J. von Schelling). However this approach is still incarnation and temporal focused. I think we agree (John as well perhaps) that Origen invites us to go higher.

            I think your review along with subsequent interviews and writings reflect a growing awareness of the eternal, which is amazing, we’re all learning together. I wouldn’t even be able to say any of this if it wasn’t for your work and John’s translation to begin with– both are excellent and folks should consider checking them out.

            “For Behr, one thing that Origen grasped with particular genius was the sheer incommensurability of eternity and time.”

            https://muse.jhu.edu/article/757668 (paywall)

            Like

          • DBH says:

            Daniel,

            I didn’t see your questions. Sorry. But someone brought them to my attention.

            You ask:
            “…are we God? Is all of creation not just simply united to the Logos but the actual Logos? That we are the second person of the Trinity condescended/emanated from the eternal into the temporal? Ought the Church to see ourselves directly in Jesus as a mirror of reality without any sort of qualification which includes his ascension: seeing the eternal rather than the temporal as true reality? And that the eternal in some amazing way is our already actualized “now” which includes us as God?”

            The problem there depends on what your definition of “is” is (to quote a famous theologian). Please recall that I have always insisted on an analogical ontology–which means an ontology that generates asymmetrical propositional logic. There is nothing that the Logos is not; and nothing exists that that is not among the logoi contained in the Logos. At the same time, nothing that exists simply is the Logos, and not even the totality of beings is the Logos, because the Logos is not a being among beings. So, yes, there is nothing in us that has any existence except in and from God, and so we are always already God in that sense. Nothing we are as beings, however, is the transcendent God as such; rather, our ontological status is that which exists in the mode of nothingness-becoming-God.

            But I have written on these things in the past, and will do so again in the future (one last time); but a comment box is not going to afford enough space to explain on the necessary terms.

            Liked by 3 people

          • Daniel P. says:

            “So, yes, there is nothing in us that has any existence except in and from God, and so we are always already God in that sense.”

            With all your other great points on analogical ontology taken, would you include *as* God in this? In, from and as God? I don’t think it changes the truth of anything else you’ve written here but it helps to further clarify what it means to say that we are God both with analogical language and with eternity as the transcendent perspective. I’m asking because essentially everything and anything can be used to take theosis as “becoming eternal God without qualification” and wiggling it right on down to some metaphysically incoherent sense of just “becoming god”.

            I liked your use of incarnation as “asymmetrical propositional logic”. It made me think of ascension as attaining symmetry or even that it’s the doing away of analogy altogether! It’s the logic of eternity that in the truest sense, there is only Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In a way and as you say, “Nothing we are as [temporal] beings.. is the transcendent God..” and yet as Schelling would say, and which I think you captured as well, the temporal part is still an expression of the consummate whole: eternity as an always actualized “now”.

            Also Bill Clinton as the famous theologian 😆 ?? Youthful ignorance perhaps, I had to look this up but I’m sure others caught the reference. Thank you again for your response! I realize you’re busy but I’m crossing my fingers hoping that you might be able to respond again when it’s convenient. 😀

            Like

      • Daniel P. says:

        David, instead of analogical ontology, what if we simply said “the incarnation” which perfectly reconciles that which is irreconcilably different: the eternal and temporal? What if instead of the imperfection of asymmetrical propositional logic we are dealing with the perfect symmetry of Christ’s whole being in the incarnation: fully God and man?

        In terms of “how”, I don’t know where else to go with that other than “God’s power”, although I know the word “magic” has been used at times 😅 .

        The approach of “God’s power” seemed to work at times for the early church theologians who said that God called forth creation from nothing and only by God’s power instead of from the Father’s substance. (Paraphrasing St. John of Damascus in “An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith.”)

        I bring these things up in earnest and I appreciate all the things everyone shares here. I do really resonate with the idea of the concreteness of Jesus’ actual person and this in comparison to mere abstractions of analogy, that divine truth ultimately is a person not an analogy. (Big hat-tip to Jordan Wood as I do my best to articulate my own understanding here!)

        Like

        • DBH says:

          I would reject such language as deeply confused. To oppose language of the incarnation to the language of analogical ontology is a category error, and “symmetry” is a meaningless word in relation to the incarnation. It is the absolute ontological asymmetry of the union that makes it one of perfect identity rather than the magical unification of opposed “things.”

          Liked by 2 people

          • Daniel P. says:

            Definitely lots of good things for me to consider in that conversation between you and Jordan.

            I believe the question of ‘Are we God?’ could be a separate discussion. You said that you plan to address that one more time in the future, I really look forward to it!

            Liked by 1 person

          • Daniel P. says:

            David,

            I’m pondering the significance of using ‘person’ rather than ‘analogy,’ and I believe it lies in its emphasis on eternity as the true reality. The Trinitarian persons, whose life encompasses us, are eternal. (Also, I appreciate your feedback on my prior message regarding my use of ‘incarnation’.)

            In the hypostatic union, we affirm Jesus as ‘fully God and human.’ The Logos, summoned into creation from nothing, by the power of the Father, reveals the mystery of uniting irreconcilable essences.

            What’s fascinating about this is that even as we navigate the temporal world, faith beckons us toward the full experience of eternity. I’m reminded of Schelling’s words: ‘Whatever I behold, I behold the whole’—in the hypostatic union, let’s emphasize the eternal!

            P.S. I’m eagerly anticipating your future lecture: ‘The Light of Tabor: Notes Toward a Monist Christology’! 🤩

            Like

          • DBH says:

            I’m afraid I reject that language absolutely. The “hypostatic union of irreconcilable essences” is a logical nonsense and the Logos “summoned into creation” even more so. I’m all for starting from the principle of Person, but only as Bulgakov does: the trihypostatic “chelovek” or Person who is the one nature of all natures.

            Like

  9. Fr Aidan Kimel says:

    One of the questions Jesse’s article raises for me is: When thinking of the Fall, how do we relate the mythological, mythopoeic, symbolic, scientific, and meta-historical? Different levels of reality? Or is it as simple as positing an “event” that happens “before” the Big Bang?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Jesse says:

      Certainly “before” is not the best term. Something more like a “meta-historical ‘event’ that is ‘outside’ of the Big Bang” would be the language that I’d reach for, but everyday language all falls a little short here and we move either into mytho-poetic language or very technical metaphysical categories.

      Liked by 1 person

    • petritambaro says:

      This article really peaked my interest. Thank you for it.

      In my mind, the nature of paradise and the fall boils down to how we think about reality. If we live according to the Spirit of self-giving love, we can see heavenly realities. God makes sense to us, at least in our sharing of him in his own self-giving. But if we choose the passions or succumb to their lies, paradise is lost. Everything then seems dark, because we have become darkened by merciless self-absorption.

      What I’m saying is that I believe that the meta-historicity of paradise and the fall plays itself out in the basic structure of reality – in its interpersonal nature – all the time. This is not merely a theoretical idea. The saints, by self-denial for Christ, have tamed animals and brought life to death. But most of us most of the time start to think that passions and ambitions and the attendant fears are the basic principalities of reality. If we do so, as we inevitably seem to do, paradise is shut. God is unreal to us. Life is gone. Death is the end. Suffering absolutely disproves the beatitude of unconditional love.

      But the way back, back to where life is breathable again, is by seeing that we have individually and collectively decides to sell our birth-right. All of us almost inevitably impoverish the very fabric of reality by submitting to authorities we were never meant to serve. With the exception of the humility of the Mother of God. Her self-denial – which for her is just normal – opens the Way forward, gives us Jesus, the Way back to the future we are always meant to have.

      And then things start to happen. What we considered mythological and “only” subcreational suddenly reveals itself as having more concrete reality than our sometimes rather rigid existential schemes. Reality becomes a unified whole of physical wonder and spiritual no-nonesense.

      My point here is that the potential meta-historicity of paradise and the fall should be less about fitting modern schemes of evolution and archaeology, not that I have anything against them, but rather about feeling the transformative import of the primal stories handed down to us. Reality is both paradise and fallen, and how we participate in virtues and asceticism through the grace of Christ affects which side presents itself to those around us. Not for us in ourselves, since we were never meant to be anything but the help that is meet. And that’s our glory in that Trinity.

      Liked by 2 people

  10. Tom says:

    It’s definitely a heavy-weight volume, but if you all have the opportunity to spend time in Fr John Behr’s translation and commentary (the Introduction alone would be a priceless publication) on Gregory (that Jesse mention’s in his summary), you won’t regret it.

    I’ll only point out that Fr Behr does not hold to any such atemporal or meta-historical fall into mortality as such. There are a number of online presentations he gives on the question that you can search for on Youtube. Well worth your time.

    Thanks again for the summary Jesse!

    Liked by 1 person

    • jhakeclassicalsubjectscom says:

      Yes, thanks for pointing this out. Having chatted a little about this topic privately with a younger scholar, Jordan Wood, who follows John Behr very closely in many things, I’d sure love to see more discussion of this between the likes of Hart, Wood, and Behr. I know that Wood has written about the nature of time in a few places as well as about the human fall in his book on Maximus (which I also cite above). That material from Wood is a real challenge to compare with the material from Behr. Certainly no shortage of questions to be asked related to the subject, and I hope more work and writing will be done by the scholars.

      Like

    • Jesse says:

      Yes, thanks for pointing this out. Having chatted a little about this topic privately with a younger scholar, Jordan Wood, who follows John Behr very closely in many things, I’d sure love to see more discussion of this between the likes of Hart, Wood, and Behr. I know that Wood has written about the nature of time in a few places as well as about the human fall in his book on Maximus (which I also cite above). That material from Wood is a real challenge to compare with the material from Behr. Certainly no shortage of questions to be asked related to the subject, and I hope more work and writing will be done by the scholars.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Tom says:

        Fr Behr has put out a fair bit on the question. A good place to start would be:

        1) This 2023 presentation at Regent College (Vancouver): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck-VPmjRqXs. The benefit of this more recent presentation is that his Gregory volume is behind him and a good deal of it shows up in his talk.

        2) This 2016 presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7nEgSkFWzk. This was the first time I heard him talk on the issue. Until then I thought I was crazy, or a heretic, or both.

        I hear he’s doing the Didsbury Lectures this fall and plans on addressing this issue.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Tom says:

        Besides Behr there are a few others.

        Interestingly, I was unaware that Yannaras adopts the view that mortality/death as such (including entropy and decay) are the God-given terms in which we are intended to move from beginning to end in God. Fr Aidan commented on it recently:

        “[Yannaras] does not invoke a mythological paradisal immortality, as did many of the Church Fathers. ‘Man’s nature is created and mortal’, he affirms. It is precisely the provocation of our finitude and mortality that poses the temptation to realize existence apart from communion with God.”

        The Fall of Humanity into Self-Exile From Paradise

        Like

        • Robert F says:

          Does such a belief mean that the personal mode of existence which is the life of God includes mortality/death from the beginning, the Lamb that was slain, and into the eschaton? That mortality/death are, to speak in extremely paradoxical terms, part of the life everlasting and eternal? Since humanity is meant to be incorporated into the life of the Trinity, and is in Jesus Christ, does that mean that the economy of mortality and death plays in inextricable part in Life Divine?

          I was talking about something that touch on this with my wife and a pastor friend at lunch the other day. Regarding sadness and suffering, my wife said that some of the most beautiful music and other art that exists is about lament, brokenness, sadness, and it is hard to imagine a heavenly life that is full lacking those dimensions, or being out of touch with the experience that gave rise to them. And that got me wondering out loud if the imposed suffering of this life, including the dregs and the worst of it, in the life of the next world are transformed by being freely accepted into another kind of life in which personal suffering does not disappear but remains as a facet of perfect bliss. In that case, there might be no other way to learn how to….tolerate… eternal life and get to the bliss inside it than to go through the wringer here, and hereafter for most of us. Because living inside the life of the Trinity might be much harder than we, or I, might like to think, and require a tremendously difficult apprenticeship (for lack of a better word). But all this is hard to process, especially during a pleasant lunch; it’s hard to process in retrospect as well. I’d love to hear whatever thoughts others might have regarding this.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Tom says:

            Robert, I think the uncreated/created (infinite/finite) difference explains why we cannot attribute to (the infinite and uncreated) God the same necessities of growth and progress that define us, along with the suffering implied in the conditions that make our movement from origin to end such a precarious venture. If these conditions constitute our capacity to misrelate and provoke us to choose awry, wouldn’t supposing these conditions obtain in God imply the same? I don’t think that’s something we want to say about God.

            It’s true that from our experience of these unfolding conditions we come to know the goodness and sweetness of God through pain and loss, and it may seem inconceivable that we contemplate that goodness apart from the backdrop of painful memories and loss, but – and I’ve mentioned this passage in Rom 8 a lot here – Paul does envision the consummation in terms of being utterly unqualified by past losses and sufferings. He makes it clear that all our combined suffering is “not worth comparing to” the glory to be revealed in us. That’s hard to say if what you’re describing is true, if I follow ya.

            Like

          • Robert F says:

            I understand what you’re saying, and why you raise this objection to this idea. But, if I understand Daniel Pigeon’s long query of DBH in the reply above, in asking if we if are God with a capital G now, and if the eternal is already somehow actualized in our existence right now, he is asking a question an affirmative answer to which would include affirmation of something like what I said in my question/comment to you. When I read the Christian Century interview, it also made me wonder if DBH was asserting or implying the things that Daniel Pigeon thinks he might’ve been. I hope DBH replies to Daniel Pigeon, because I would like to hear his answer.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Tom says:

            I hear ya. The perhaps if saying (in a qualified sense) that we are God (contingently expressed, perhaps?) means having to upload the drama of created becoming and all its suffering into God, then that’s a good reason to let go the idea that we are God.

            Perhaps what we can say is that what in God are the eternally realized movements of love in their fullness (the self-surrender and kenotic deference within that filial awareness) unfold within created being given the inherent capacities and limitations of contingent being, and it’s those conditions (becoming, process, deliberative agency, the necessity to grow morally toward personhood, to learn obedience through suffering, etc) that make our drama inevitable. But this is a concession to the constraints of created being and not the substance of our ‘end’ per se. Pain and suffering may be the necessary terms in which we move from infancy to mature personhood, but this is no reason to suppose there are in God divine equivalents to pain, loss, suffering, despair, etc. In the end, we are called into being from the void, and that constitutes a truth that shapes us and our becoming, but there’s no equivalent relation in God, so…

            For what it’s worth.

            Like

          • Tom says:

            Correction: *TheN* perhaps if saying…

            Like

          • Robert F says:

            Tom, I was just listening to my favorite theologian, who said, “Nobody wins unless everybody wins,” and one of my other favorite theologians, who sang, “I got a home on high…In another land…So far away…Way up in the heaven….In another time…In another place….In another face…”.

            “That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it.”

            Liked by 1 person

          • Tom says:

            Not sure I’m following what the song lines have to do with our question, but OK. ;o)

            Like

          • Robert F says:

            I just went off on a tangent, Tom. I can’t get any further with the questions and answers. Nothing satisfies me. Maybe it has something to do with enduring significant physical pain for the last week that has been interfering with my normal activities in a big way, draining my mental energy, depressing the hell out of me, and generating lots of fear. Discussion is one thing, being in the grip of torment is another.

            Like

          • Tom says:

            Oh Rob, I’m sorry to hear you’re in pain!

            In that case, let’s definitely shelve this convo and put on some good music instead!

            Liked by 1 person

          • Robert F says:

            I still reflexively reach out for convo, because pain makes me feel even more alone than I normally already do. That’s one of the worst things about pain and suffering: even though they are universal, they make some of us feel completely alone, isolated, abandoned. I know having a good relationship network helps people deal with these kinds of thing, and many other things as well, but I’m afraid I don’t have that.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Tom says:

            Once again, throughout this entire conversation I’ve been thinking you Robert F are Robert Fortuin (also Robert F) who frequents this blog and comments.

            Like

          • Robert J says:

            Easy enough for me to change to Robert J.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

            Haha! The change does make life easier for us. 😁

            Like

          • Tom says:

            Thank you Robert J for the J. I’m pay closer attention too!

            Like

          • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

            “I’m pay closer attention too!”

            Obviously not. 😜

            Liked by 1 person

          • Tom says:

            Haha! I mean I ‘will’ pay closer attention from now on. But I’ll never weed out typos. They are my cross to bear.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

            Your cross to bear and ours to enjoy! 😂

            Like

    • Daniel P. says:

      Hi Tom!

      John Behr is awesome and this is a great dialogue.

      I’m curious if folks would agree with me that a lot of John’s teachings can be summed up as “Jesus is God become man”. The use of the word “become” here denotes the eternal and its relation to the temporal/incarnation.

      It reminds me a lot of a quote by F.W.J. von Schelling. I have a few other thoughts but I already shared them in the thread above– essentially just that all this is true but that Origen also ultimately insists on a more eternal approach.

      “Whatever I behold, I behold the whole. The part is for itself a whole and nothing less than the whole. This is precisely the character of the consummate spirituality [der vollendeten Geistigkeit], where the beginning is not extrinsic to the end and the end is not extrinsic to the beginning. Therefore the beginning is in the Spirit, where the end is too: in the Spirit the parts are not separate from one another but are in one another, just as Christ describes the Spirit by likening Him to the blowing of the wind.”
      F.W.J. von Schelling, Lectures on the Philosophy of Revelation, 10 translated by Jordan Wood.

      Like

      • Tom says:

        Hi Daniel,

        ‘Became’ in ‘the Word became flesh’ certainly locates the mystery doesn’t it? Thank God it exists!

        I agree that beginning and end are not extrinsic to each other. I’m not sure what it means to say they simply ‘are one another’, but from a certain vantage, yes, ‘in the Spirit’ the divine identity gives itself seamlessly to both.

        The challenge, for me at least, is how to understand the ‘difference’ between beginning and end, not as tragic alienation but as the grace of teleology and of becoming, of ‘movement’ from one to the other; and then, once the good of that movement is affirmed, how to understand creation’s infancy not as imperfection but as an aspect of the good of creation. I don’t think the consummation will bring ‘becoming’ to an end. Our final participation in the immortal God is true becoming, epektasis as ‘ever moving rest’.

        …in light of which other questions arise:

        1. Can creation begin at its end (if beginning and end are not extrinsic to each other and even are each other)? I think the answer is no. ‘Movement’ from infancy to maturity just is the metaphysical price-tag for getting any conceivable creation into final union with God.

        2. If we cannot begin at our end but must travel the distance between the two, then (a) must not this movement be good and not tragic or fallen? And (b) must there not also be a mode of temporal becoming that is God-given as beginning but not its final, consummate mode of participation. I think the answer has to be yes.

        3. How are we then to imagine created ‘becoming’ in its God-given mode of infancy? What might it look like? Would not its movement be other/less than its final mode of blessed participation as we imagine the end to be? (Answer: Yes) And what would this imply about the nature of our beginning? And here we have to talk about entropy and decay? Might these be the God-given terms of this infant state of movement that is not yet its end? My answer is yes. Indeed, I think that once we deny this we have no good way to sustain other concessions which I hear some are willing to make, i.e., about the evil of mortality but the necessity of some pain, discomfort, confusion, etc. Surely such movement must have a ‘God-given’ natural mode of becoming that is not its end. Otherwise teleology itself is merely an accommodation to a fall and not the ‘natural’ mode of creation’s movement; and wouldn’t this call Gregory’s notion of consummation as epektasis into question? Is it really ‘fallenness’ and ‘evil’ that explain why a seed must ‘fall into the ground and die’ before it ‘becomes’ a mature tree, or wheat, or a flower? What about eating, or even growing up through childhood into adulthood, all of which involve entropy, decay, cellular death, etc? I don’t think of any of these per se as ‘fallen’ states of becoming imposed upon us by an original primeval sin.

        You can see I’m on a very different page. I don’t imagine there is any conceivable way to ‘move’ from beginning to end that does not involve movement from mortality to immortality. And I wonder if our denying this isn’t a manifestation of the despair and fear we ‘fall’ into (Heb 2.14-15; Christ saves us ‘from the fear of death’) when we as Fr Behr suggests ‘refuse to die’, i.e., refuse to stand in the whole truth of our mortality and finitude before God and by faith let him grant us life eternal.

        Like

        • Daniel P. says:

          Lots of good considerations I think, Tom.

          Something that comes to mind, perhaps not as an answer but an addition to your considerations, is how epektasis, “ever moving rest”, can be understood in both the temporal as well as eternal/infinite. This is the paradox of eternal and infinite God (“ever moving”) who knows Godself perfectly (rest).

          It seems to me that we often only apply epektasis to temporal creatures who are ever moving towards God but yet somehow always stay in a creaturely temporal mode. (What about ascension?)

          I think the Apostle Paul articulates here how epektasis is expressed in both the temporal and eternal:

          “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” ~1 Corinthians 13:12

          Like

          • Logan(mercifullayman) says:

            The truth to all of this lies within a series of voices who all interplay with one another, not dialectically or paradoxically, but rather with a full sense of is/becoming as well as learned/learning.

            If one merely takes say Heraclitus seriously, then flows through the Neo-Platonists, does a couple hop, skips and a jump to Schelling, and then hangs out enough with the likes of people like Whitehead (with some caveats) and someone like Aurobindo, you see that indeed, the “Lila” is a dynamic activity of flow that consists of primordial procession and return in which the drama is real for both the Creator and created as one finds their fullness in the other, and as created, their very substance and being is grounded in a being that is analogically close enough to “feel” univocal while not actually being categorically the same. 

            It also is a being in which the spark of the divine resides, because God’s no-thing-ness is not nothing but rather unlike that which exists, also an analogical distinction where all being’s groundedness processes from the “some-thing” that is God himself (So in a fix to the neo-platonists, He can seem beyond being but while at the same time being no more than the fountain for which a geyser springs forth..It’s own being being hidden). 

            So in a sense, as someone perhaps like say, Silesius would remark, you and God are one, but only in the sense in which “you” maintain the truly ontic “you” that is the “you” who bows before the You that is really the ground of you, and makes you an “I.” Not the Fichtean or early Schelling reverse where the I that you surmise, dictates your own Absolute. 

            Lila brings us to the interplay of transcendence and immanence, to being and becoming, to learning and knowing, and it is in this encounter, in this arena, that all of the fullness of all that is will be made manifest. Even the finality of existence, at least Scripturally, doesn’t happen in the clouds, but right here.

            When fire will reveal to us all who we truly are for good or ill, and show us that we are ourselves, but only truly ourselves when we are gods made spiritual flesh, and in that case also God, because there is only this wonderful monistically tiered existence after all. 

            Liked by 1 person

        • Jordan Parsons says:

          How could one reconcile your view of entropy and decay as “God-given terms of this infant state of movement” with modes of suffering not directly related to such processes? I may agree that suffering in the sense of decay and entropy is a means by which we engage in becoming. But what of animal predation, for example? I find it difficult to think of the suffering of an animal being eaten alive, or the state of being bound to predation as a means of survival, as anything other than evil. How could such an arrangement reflect any kind of becoming?

          Like

          • Tom says:

            How could one reconcile your view of entropy and decay as “God-given terms of this infant state of movement” with modes of suffering not directly related to such processes? I may agree that suffering in the sense of decay and entropy is a means by which we engage in becoming. But what of animal predation, for example? I find it difficult to think of the suffering of an animal being eaten alive, or the state of being bound to predation as a means of survival, as anything other than evil. How could such an arrangement reflect any kind of becoming?

            Hi Jordan,

            Some modes of corruption and suffering that don’t seem to be God-given as such would be complications we ourselves introduce by means of poor management (personal, dietary, environmental, etc.). Some of our ailments are clearly our own fault, not ‘natural’ to entropy as such. We can at least imagine mortal beings not complicating their mortal state by provoking nature through abuse and mismanagement. But when you add abuse and mismanagement, you get further pain and suffering.

            Predation is harder, although I don’t see why an initial state of creation that God gives would ‘require’ predation among sentient animals, as hard as it is to imagine our evolutionary history having remained herbivore.

            In any case, I don’t mind granting the possibility of such suffering being inherent in any initial state that God intends should develop (in some degree) under the direction of its own material powers and dispositions. Scarcity being a factor, it’s not surprising that predation would emerge. Some find this in itself a deal-breaker and can’t imagine God would permit such a thing. But if an evolutionary/development mode of creation’s movement from origin to end is necessary (as some of us think it is) there may be no pathway forward that avoids such a possibility.

            I trust that God will redeem all that can be redeemed, and I do suspect animals will populate the consummate state. If DBH and Jordan Wood are right – every individual sentient creature (T-Rexes, Raptors, and every mosquito, and every Cardiru fish) is raised to inhabit the Eschaton, no? I once asked Fr Al what sort of changes we should expect in the T-Rex upon its resurrection in Christ. “Barney” was his (tongue in cheek) reply. ;o)

            Liked by 1 person

          • Jordan Parsons says:

            As someone who came to Christ largely as a result of moral concern for animals, “Barney in the Eschaton” strikes me as a worthy slogan.

            Liked by 2 people

  11. Grant says:

    Thank you for this. This is largely my view, which I have ineptly argued for, as the only viable Christian view, that I view as necessary as universalism if God is to be understood as the Good or Love an anyway that has any meaning.

    Liked by 2 people

  12. Joanna L says:

    I can’t think of this world as fallen. It creates a great deal of despondency. This is my Father’s house and it is full of life. Death has gained entrance and it lurks around every corner. It ravages relentlessly, but life will not be overcome. This is a house of life. This is not a house of death.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Jesse says:

      This world is—first and last and at the core—the creation of our good and loving Father. On that Christians (and many others) all agree. Fallenness, whatever it might be, is entirely contingent.

      Like

    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Joanna, I can’t think of the world as anything but fallen. That it is also a house of life is indeed a blessing and joy; but it is also a place of horrific suffering, violence, and disaster. How can it not have fallen from the good God’s original intention? If it isn’t fallen, then we must ascribe full responsibility to God himself, which for me is impossible to believe.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Robert J says:

        The question for me continues to be: How would a meta-historical fall out of a different kind of time help us avoid ascribing responsibility, full or not (a little bit of responsibility seems to me to go just as far as a whole lot in this matter, since it would be divine responsibility), to God himself for the “horrific suffering, violence, and disaster” that we encounter in this house/world better than the absence of such a meta-historical fall, other than placing God a little further away, behind a few thick layers of cosmic drapes (“Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!”)?

        Liked by 1 person

        • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

          Robert, your question reminded me of The Doors of the Sea,’ in which David Hart addresses the distinction between what God wills and what he permits:

          “Some theologians–Calvin, for instance–have denied that the distinction between what God wills and what he permits has any meaning at all. . . . When all is said and done, however, not only is the distinction neither illogical nor slight; it is an absolute necessity–setting aside, as we should, all other judgments as suppositious, stochastic, and secondary–we are to be guided by the full character of what is revealed of God in Christ. For, after all, if it is from Christ that we are to learn how God relates himself to sin, suffering, evil, and death, it would seem that he provides us little evidence of anything other than a regal, relentless, and miraculous enmity: sin he forgives, suffering he heals, evil he casts out, and death he conquers. And absolutely nowhere does Christ act as if any of these things are part of the eternal work or purposes of God.

          Which it is well to remember. For somehow the most vital and urgent thing to know about the God revealed in the Gospels is that (for instance) the tears of that little girl suffering in the dark of whom Ivan speaks are not a reflection of the divine will or a necessary moment in the dialectical unfolding of history–according to God’s “great plan”–toward the ‘kingdom’ that awaits it as a kind of immanent cosmic telos. God may permit evil to have a history of its own so as not to despoil creatures of their destiny of free union with him in love, but he is not the sole and irresistible agency shaping that history according to eternal arbitrary decrees. Thomas Aquinas–who did most definitely insist upon a distinction between divine will and divine permission–stated the logic of providence with elegant brevity: Deus plus amat quod est magis bonum, et ideo magis vult praesentiam magis bani quam absentiam minus mali: ‘God loves more the greater good–and thus more greatly wills the presence of the greater good–than he does the absence of the lesser evil.'”

          I think these two paragraphs–indeed the entire book–are germane to your question.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Robert J says:

            Thank you for your reply, I will see if I can get my hands on a copy of the book via Amazon.

            But I have one more question I feel compelled to ask: How can there be a greater good than God Godself? If God is infinite, and infinitely good, and indeed Infinite Good,then how could he add to his own Goodness? How can God’s goodness be added to? What is the greater good than God Godself?

            Like

        • Grant says:

          I can accept it if humanity and angels etc (assuming there is a difference in the more real time and beginning) are tasked to be as God, to be co/sub-creators with Him by grace, and that the whole cosmos is necessarily tied with us all.

          That, and it being unavoidable that any conscious being, could, called from nothing, twist mistakenly back towards non-being in it’s call into divinity, but again, only could, that otherwise it could not be free developing persons.

          These two things together, would make it possible though not inevitable that a Fall of creation into an incomplete and devistated nightmare possible, though God if Good and Love would have to take full responsiblity for it (since He call all things into being, and move and have their being in Him).

          For Christian, that is the nature Christ’s Incarnation took, taking it all on Himself, unto the darkness and deepest depths, beyond anything that anything else in creation will have to face, to rescue, heal and restore it complete (and even locking us in our disobedience in the way it is, to order to can make sure His mercy and rescue will reach and deliver all things across all fallen time and space).

          It won’t and isn’t a perfect theodicy, and I fully feel your point (because it rightly raises that God is other than Good and Love, some Lovcraftian-like eldritch unkownable ultimate reality).

          But for me, it the one thing with Christ saving of all things in which the possiblity of God being who Christ reveals Him to be remains true, particularly in looking to Christ as the place where God indeed does take responsbiltiy for it all (provided of course, was a possiblity that need not have been, otherwise the story becomes twisted into that akin to an abusive relationship).

          No idea if any of this helps, like said, I don’t think it’s a perfect theodicy, properly seeing and facing the long sufferings and horrors in this universe for over a billion years is the greatest challenge to the Christian claims.

          Like

          • Grant says:

            Addition: Since I’m assuming most here are universalists, I’m not thinking of infernalism as the greatest challenge to Christian claims, since I assume we at least agree that would not be the case if Christianity is true 😉

            Like

          • Robert J says:

            It does help, Grant, thank you, as did Fr Aidan’s reply, including the passage he cited from DBH. I suppose no explanation can go all the way, there is the need for a kind of leap at some point, but I think that is true for atheists and non-theists, as well as Christians and other theists. I have to base my leap on a handful of experiences in my life that amount to what I understand as divine signals calling my attention to the presence of God, signals which also then pointed me to Jesus Christ as the face and voice of God.

            Like

        • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

          “How can there be a greater good than God Godself?”

          There can’t. God is the infinite Good.

          Like

          • Robert F says:

            I’m not sure what the quote from Aquinas means, if that is true, in the context of this subject. “God loves more the greater good” — which is himself — “than he does the absence of the lesser evil.” Surely not creating anything would’ve involved God loving the greater good, himself, infinite Good, without having any of the lesser evil, which can only exist with the existence of creation. If he is infinite Good, then he could not add to the infinity of his own goodness by creating, he could only create an occasion for lesser evil. Is that not so? Is my logic deficient?

            Liked by 1 person

          • Robert J says:

            I mean, Robert J….

            Like

  13. Rhys says:

    This is compelling, but it gives me pause because it seems that a meta-historical fall and meta-historical parousia could call for a meta-historical Jesus: is the historicity of the incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection still required on the perspective outlined in this article, or could someone who holds this view dispense with the historicity of the Gospel narratives and assert that Christ himself is just an allegory for some meta-historical redemptive act of God?

    Like

Comments are closed.