Predestined to Glory: The Extravagant, Prodigal, and Omnipotent Love of God

by Fr Aidan Kimel

I have followed the work of the esteemed philosopher Dr Eleonore Stump since her days at Virginia Tech. It is was with great interest, therefore, that I read her article “The God of Love.”1 After reading the first paragraph, with its claim that “universalism is not only not a consequence of God’s love; it is not so much as compatible with God’s love,” I knew I had to attempt a response. The extravagant and prodigal love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has been the heart of my preaching and parochial ministry since my ordination in 1980. At each step of the way, the logic of love has guided my theological convictions.

Divine love and universalism are incompatible, Stump argues, because salvation is the union of two free wills, divine and human. God graciously offers sinners his forgiveness and love, but he must wait upon their free consent. He will not force anyone into his Kingdom. It takes two to tango:

When God creates human beings with free will, God judges it acceptable to him that possibly some human beings might not be united with God and that human beings have control over whether this possibility is actualized. If God had not willed to create human beings with free will, then all states of affairs would have been up to God alone. But then union with human beings would have been precluded for God, since union requires two wills to unite. So, it is God’s will that it lies ultimately within the control of human beings whether God’s desire for union with each human being is fulfilled.

As Stump succinctly wrote in 1986: “It is not within the power even of an omnipotent entity to make a person freely will anything.”2 In the literature, this position is known as the free-will defense of hell. Given her belief that universalism includes “the thesis that God unilaterally brings it about that all human beings are brought to heaven,”3 Stump’s assertion of incompatibility initially seems airtight.

Yet there is an immediate problem: all Christian universalists, whether patristic or modern, agree with Stump that salvation requires the free union of wills, divine and human. This is as true for Origen and St Gregory of Nyssa as it is for modern universalists such as Sergius Bulgakov, Thomas Talbott, and David Bentley Hart.4 Each advances their own speculations on how God might providentially bring the wicked to embrace his forgiveness and love—ranging from purifying “fire” and the healing of the passions, deliverance from ignorance and delusion and the restoration of rational freedom, to transformative encounter with God in his infinite Goodness, Truth, and Beauty—but each affirms the free decision of the sinner as a necessary condition for eschatological blessedness. The alleged incompatibility of the universalist proposal and human freedom must therefore be dismissed as a generalization too inaccurate and imprecise to be accepted.

I also find curious Stump’s categorical claim that the omnipotent God cannot effect the free conversion of the wicked, given that so many Latin theologians have advanced doctrines of predestina­tion that presuppose precisely this divine power and competence. St Augustine of Hippo, St Fulgentius, and St Thomas Aquinas immediately come to mind.5 Those within this tradition call it efficacious grace. I understand this is a contentious position in the Catholic Church, but it is difficult for me to see how it can be rejected out of hand. In the words of Augustine:

For this reason we must see how it is that we say what the apostle most truthfully said of God, “who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim 2:4). Since not all are saved, but many more are not saved, it seems that what God wills to happen does not happen because a human will frustrates the will of God. . . . The words of the Lord in the gospel make the matter even clearer when he rebukes a wicked city with the words, “How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!” (Mt 23:37) as if God’s will had been overcome by the will of men and the most mighty one were unable to do as he willed because the very weak prevented him by not being willing. Where is that omnipotence that has done whatever it willed in heaven and on earth if he willed to gather together the children of Jerusalem and did not do so? . . . But he gathered together the children he willed to gather together despite her unwillingness, for in heaven and on earth he did not will some things and do them and will others but not do them, but he did everything he willed.6

Clearly the Doctor of Grace does not believe that the Omnipotence can be frustrated by the recalcitrant wills of fallen human beings. “Therefore this grace . . . is rejected by no one,” he asserts, “no matter how hard-hearted he may be.”7 Augustine teaches that faith is a beneficent gift of God. This gifting does not coerce the sinner against his will; it liberates the will and directs it to its proper object. “God produces the acts of the will in the minds of human beings,” writes Augustine—“not so that they believe against their will, for that is utterly absurd to say—but so that they become willing from unwilling.”8 And again: “Who is drawn if he is already willing? And yet no one comes unless he wills to come. Therefore he is drawn in a marvelous way so that he wills, by him who knows how to work in the human heart itself.”9

Hence we may conclude that Augustine would vigorously disagree with Stump’s view that God is helpless when confronted by definitive rejection. Raising the dead is his specialty.

Long ago I became persuaded that as the transcendent wellspring of being, God’s relationship to the world is best understood as noncompetitive and noncontrastive: God differs differently.10 He does not inhabit the same metaphysical plane as his creatures. He is not other to us as a being among beings, nor does his willing compete with our willing. We are not autonomous agents living out our lives on a deistic stage. Everything that is depends upon God’s continuous outpouring of being. James Ross offers this beautiful image: “The being of the cosmos is like a song on the breath of a singer.”11 At every moment we are being sung ex nihilo into existence. Consequently, the transcendent Creator need not force us to do anything: coercion is excluded by his radical difference from finite beings and his immanent presence within the depths of our existing; his relationship with us is too close, too intimate, too interior. God does not operate on us from the outside; he does not act upon us as objects, one billiard ball hitting the other; nor does he manipulate us through nefarious means. God is the infinite source and prime mover of our thinking, decisions, and activities. He makes us who we are as free personal agents. Within this noncontrastive account of divine transcendence and immanence, freedom signifies the absence of determination by other creatures. We are free when we are the subject of our deeds and not compelled by external finite forces. Freedom does not and cannot mean that we are independent of our Creator. Consider a novelist. The author of a novel does not make her characters do something; she makes them doing it. So it is with God. He does not make us act; he makes us acting.12 God is the direct and primary cause, with ourselves as the simultaneous secondary cause, of our intending and doing. Philosophers term this explanation double agency or dual sources. To therefore think of our Creator as violating our personal integrity by his beneficent bestowal of virtues and powers is, I suggest, a category mistake. It assumes a competitive relationship between Creator and creature, as if our freedom requires the absence of supernatural agency and gifting. Our willing, rather, flows from and is enfolded within the divine willing. In him we live and move and have our being. Herbert McCabe elaborates:

God’s activity, then, does not compete with mine. Whereas the activity of any other creature makes a difference to mine and would interfere with my freedom, the activity of God makes no difference. It has a more fundamental and important job to do than making a difference. It makes me have my own activity in the first place. I am free; I have my own spontaneous activity not determined by other creatures, because God makes me free. Not free of him (this would be to cease to exist), but free of other creatures.

The idea that God’s causality could interfere with my freedom can only arise from an idolatrous notion of God as a very large and powerful creature—a part of the world. We see an ascending scale of powerful causes. The more powerful the cause, the more difference it makes. And we are inclined to locate God at the top of the scale, and to imagine that he makes the most difference of all. But God does not make the most difference. He makes, if you like, all the difference—which is the same as making no difference at all.13

While the double agency position may not mandate Augustinian predestination, it is certainly compatible with it.14 God turns us to himself not by coercive intrusion but by “the sweet attractiveness of truth and the force of our own desire and delight in it.”15

Humanity is intrinsically ordered to eternal happiness. We are created for God, and our hearts are restless until they rest in him. Hence we may speak of predestinating grace as a blessed necessity that liberates persons for the realization of their eschatological end. This grace must succeed, for the Good is its final cause. As the Bishop of Hippo puts it: “They receive the Holy Spirit so that there arises in their minds a delight in and a love for that highest and immutable good that is God.”16 Grace disenthralls the will from its enslave­ment to disordered desires and enables the apprehension of the captivating truth of the gospel. Grace bestows a liberty that cannot resist grace. It cannot be otherwise, for in our postlapsarian condition we cannot heal our hearts of stone. Jesse Couenhoven elaborates:

In his late works, Augustine writes of the gift of charity, the principle of love that changes the sinner’s fundamental orientation from one of carnal concupiscence to one of love for God because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is made possible through incorporation into Christ. This gift—which is an internal work, not merely a divine manipulation of external circumstances—draws us into the good by giving us a renewed knowledge of and delight in the good. . . . More accurately, operative grace gives libertas back to sinners. Like the medicine of Christ that it is, the Holy Spirit mends the will’s sickness, its dysfunction, and its inability for good and replaces it with a power for good more like God’s own. This is not an alien power, because we were made to have this power for good. In addition, such divine surgery does not violate human free choice, since liberum arbitrium consents to the leading of the voluntas, which is transformed by the Spirit. To the contrary, grace’s healing makes choice more powerful since by orienting it toward the good, it is made truly free and (eventually) less fragmented. Thus, for Augustine, faith is both a deterministic gift from God and the result of human consent.17

The indwelling Spirit is the decisive difference between Adamic freedom (the ability to choose between good and evil) and the freedom of grace (the necessary embrace of the good): by the gift of charity, we now love and delight in the irresistible Goodness of God. We are perfected not by the addition of a created quality but by uncreated grace, the dynamic and enlivening presence of the Holy Spirit. “In the absence of this uncreated grace,” Stephen Duffy comments, “choice there may be, but not ordered choice begotten of love above all and in all.”18 The freedom granted by grace thus anticipates the eschato­log­ical liberty the saints enjoy in heaven. Although Adam and Eve were created with a natural desire for God, they were not perfectly united to him as the saints are; they were not yet deified. The blessed so partake of the divine nature that they share in the divine inability to sin.19

We may, by way of analogy from finite causal relations, call this determinism; but not all determinations are inimical to human flourishing, and divine determinations never are. True liberty is not the capacity to make alternate choices between this and that—and certainly not between heaven and hell—but the ability to flourish as creatures ordered to deification in Christ. That God acts unilater­ally to deliver us from our passions and grant us freedom in the Spirit is restoration of our authentic selves; that he predestines us to eternal happiness in his Trinitarian life is the ultimate expression of his love and the glorious fulfillment of our divinely ordained destiny.

Thesis: God the Father has predestined humanity to eternal glory in Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

In my judgment, the argument from efficacious grace is the most elegant and robust defense of the universalist hope now on display.20 Yet as compelling as I find Augustine’s construal of absolute predestination (minus reprobation), my faith that God will save all does not rest upon it. It firmly rests, rather, upon the Father who has revealed himself in Jesus Christ as absolute, unconditional, omnipotent love. At this point I would normally shift into preaching mode, quite likely choosing the three parables of Luke 15 as my text: the good shepherd, the woman and the lost coin, the forgiving father. These parables authorize the preacher to speak of the love of God in terms of such extravagance and prodigality that even the most sentimental among us will be scandalized.

Here is the critical difference between universalists and proponents of eternal damnation: universalists are horrified by the claim that God would condemn his children to everlast­ing torment. St Isaac the Syrian speaks for all who confess the greater hope:

It is not the way of the compassionate Maker to create rational beings in order to deliver them over mercilessly to unending affliction in punishment for things of which He knew even before they were fashioned, aware how they would turn out when He created them—and whom nonetheless He created.21

For Isaac, Gehenna belongs to God’s providential and merciful care for humanity. Its purpose is not retributive but remedial and restorative and is therefore of limited duration. To think otherwise, he declares, is blasphemy:

The Kingdom and Gehenna are matters belonging to mercy, which were conceived of in their essence by God as a result of His eternal goodness. It was not a matter of requiting, even though He gave them the name of requital. That we should further say or think that the matter is not full of love and mingled with compassion would be an opinion full of blasphemy and insult to our Lord God. By saying that He will even hand us over to burning for the sake of sufferings, torment and all sorts of ills, we are attributing to the divine Nature an enmity towards the very rational being which He created through grace.22

And so the saint prophetically announces that the all-loving God will one day demonstrate his “immense and ineffable compassion” by releasing the lost souls from their Gehennic purgations and raising them into glory and joy.23

Isaac confronts us with two incompatible apprehensions of the divine love—a love that would never condemn the wicked to everlasting perdition and a love that does. Consider the dual wills distinction invoked by Stump: God antecedently wills the salvation of all human beings; but once human history gets launched, he consequently wills the eternal damnation of those who die in a state of incorrigible impenitence. In this sense, his consequent will represents an “unfulfilled desire” in God. This then raises the question whether God is disappointed by humanity’s rejection of his offer of salvation. No, replies Stump, “because that outcome is in accordance with God’s consequent will. God is not disappointed in having his will fulfilled.”24 That God cannot be disappointed by the fulfillment of his will follows from the classical understanding of divinity, yet it seems odd that Stump would speak anthropomorphically of God having unfulfilled desires. This cannot be the case for the eternal, immutable, and simple Creator who is infinite in his perfection. God, as the scholastics say, is actus purus. His desiring is his willing. In reality, therefore, the antecedent and consequent wills of God are merely different ways of thinking about the one volitional act that is the divine essence. The dual distinction only arises when we consider the creaturely objects of God’s willing (ex parte creatorum)—specifically, when we think of human beings before and after the Final Judgment.25 Abstractly, we might say that God desires the salvation of every human being; but concretely he wills the salvation of those who die in a state of grace and wills the reprobation of those who die in a state of mortal sin. The consequent spells out the salvific conditions that were unstated in the antecedent. Hence there are no unfulfilled desires in God. If he had truly wanted a different outcome, he would have willed differently.26

In the eschaton, when God is all in all and the cosmos has become theophany, the meaning and content of his antecedent will will be fully disclosed in the enactment of his conse­quent will; the conceptual distinction then ceases to obtain. As Hart observes: “Given the metaphysics and logic of the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo, any distinction between what God wills and what God permits necessarily collapses at creation’s eschatological horizon; so too any distinction between God’s antecedent and consequent wills.”27 God’s antecedent willing equals his consequent willing equals his eschatological willing equals his eternal willing. The eschaton reveals, manifests, embodies the eternal character of the Creator.

At the Final Judgment one of two antithetical construals of the divine love will thus be confirmed:

  • The divine love will be unveiled as conditional and delimited: God wills the salvation of sinners only if they repent. Love saves and love damns: “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Matt 13:49-50); or
  • The divine love will be unveiled as absolute, unconditional, illimited, comprehensive: God wills the transfiguration of all in glorious apokatastasis. And so the prophetic words of the Apostle Paul will be fulfilled: “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15:28).28

Stump tells us that God loves the reprobate, even though he has condemned them to dwell in interminable suffering and torment. They have been cast into the outer darkness and severed from the source of life and happiness. Their everlasting misery is, as ecclesial tradition has long taught, their just punishment. St Bonaventure states the scholastic maxim: “God cannot permit any misery to exist in us except as a punishment of sin.”29 In his goodness, God does not tolerate the suffering of his rational creatures unless it is inflicted, directly or indirectly, as divine punishment. The maxim obviously has it limits. Clearly God does permit suffering in history that cannot be justified by his justice (original sin notwithstanding). That he permits privation and torment in his good world can only be excused by his promise that through the wounds and death of Jesus he has redeemed evil and will heal and Christify its victims. In the words of John the Seer: “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away” (Rev 21:4). Yet I do maintain that the Bonaventurean maxim is directly applicable to the eschaton. In itself, suffering is an evil. If interminable eschatological torment is justified—if it can be justified—it is solely by adverting to the divine justice. This, I submit, is the fatal flaw of the free-will model of hell: it ultimately collapses into good old-fashioned retribution.

We may no longer paint lurid pictures of hell, but the horror remains and rightly so. Everlasting perdition is the worst possible end for human beings. Forever imprisoned in what Stump calls their second nature (the vicious nature they have acquired for themselves30), the damned are overwhelmed by the suffering generated by depraved appetites divorced from all goods, ceaselessly subjected to the ferocious attacks of their accusing conscience, all hope for a meaningful and happy existence extinguished, hatred and despair mercilessly devouring heart and mind. Theirs is a phantasmagoric, night­mar­ish existence. What is hell but madness and never-ending agony? If the image of a torture chamber is deemed inapposite, then think of a medieval asylum for the insane.31 If God still loves the irredeemable, it is more akin to hatred than love. “God loves every man, and every creature also, in that he wills some good for every one of them,” states Thomas. “But he does not will every good for every one, and is said to hate some in so far as he does not will for them the good of eternal life.”32 The divine wrath forever rests upon the impeni­tent.

We might try to relieve God of final responsibility by assigning him the role of passive observer.33 The reprobate have freely brought this fate upon themselves—they have damned themselves—but that is a difference without a difference. In the Last Judgment, God confirms and eternalizes the rejection of the reprobate precisely as divine punish­ment. Hence we must speak of a dual willing and dual responsibility: divine damnation coin­cides with self-damnation; but it is God who has the last word. His will be done. Self-damnation is divine damnation. The Scriptures, without exception, cast God in the role of Judge who issues the verdict and announces the sentence. This is what must be the case because it is the last judgment. God has brought fallen time to a close. There is no more time for repentance and thus no more time for forgiveness. There is only the settling of accounts. God wills and eternalizes the impenitence of the wicked, with the attendant suffering this finalization inevitably brings. He condemns them to the fate they have chosen. Such is the God of the post-Justinian tradition of the Church.

Stump has advanced a free-will defense of eternal perdition. This leaves her vulnerable to one damning objection: God was free not to create rational beings. Surely this is what the Triune Deity of absolute love would have done if he could not ensure the eternal blessed­ness of all. Hence the challenge of Hart’s aporetic triad:

• God freely created the cosmos ex nihilo.
• God is the Good and wills himself as the final good of rational creatures.
• God will condemn a portion of his rational creatures to everlasting torment.34

One may coherently affirm any two of the above propositions but not all three simultaneously. As far as I can see, the only escape from the dilemma is to tweak proposition #2: for a greater (unknown) good, God may sacrifice the infinite good of some. But this is a Faustian bargain that nullifies the gospel!  “Christ died for the ungodly!” (Rom 5:6). The New Covenant is sealed in the precious blood of his only begotten Son. “It is by one and the same act,” Michael Dobbs reminds us, “that God wills both his own goodness as his proper object and the existence of creatures as ordered to his goodness.”35 The latter is comprehended within the former. If God eternally wills himself as our final good, does it make sense to speak of a higher good than theosis? To this one end the Father predestined his sons and daughters in the Son before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:1-10); to this one end the eternal Word assumed human nature as Jesus Christ, the son of the Blessed Virgin Mary; to this one end he suffered death on the cross, rose from death on Easter morning, and ascended into heaven to present to his Father a redeemed and glorified humanity united in himself—the New Adam (Rom 5:12-19). In the words of St Athanasius: “God became man so that man might become God.”36

God eternally wills deification—that we become gods in God—as the consummation of humanity and the theophanic manifestation of his Trinitarian love; therefore there can be no higher good, and no good reasons, that would justify hell in the New Creation, just as there can be no good reasons to explain why God, ante praevisa merita, would predestine some but not all to eternal glory. In both cases, the defenders of these two doctrines find themselves appealing to the inscrutable wisdom of the Deus Incognito in order to condone the unconscionable. At this precise point, we must reject all such appeals and firmly ground our reflections upon God’s self-revelation in the incarnate Word. As Thomas F. Torrance writes: “God is not one thing in himself and another thing in Jesus Christ—what God is toward us in Jesus he is inherently and eternally in himself.”37 There is no other God hiding behind the back of Jesus; just so, there is no other Good but the God of Pascha. In the infinite depths of his infinite being, our Creator is absolute Love. He wills absolutely the good of those whom he summons to become God. Whether antecedently or consequently, therefore, he cannot will the everlasting suffering of any. To do so would be to betray himself and sunder the immanent relations between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Everlasting suffering is an evil and cannot be eschatologically and morally reconciled with the divine identity of the Holy Trinity. And if God has freely created the cosmos when he need not have, we may infer that his Paschal intentions for humanity will be accomplished. Omnipotent Love must triumph—necessarily, assuredly, indubitably. In the words of the Angelic Doctor: “Since, then, the will of God is the universal cause of all things, it is impossible that the divine will should not produce its effect.”38

I reiterate: theosis is the predetermined telos and fulfillment of humanity, eternally willed in the same divine act in which God wills himself as his supreme Good and End. No other eschatological ends for mankind have been divinely decreed. Thus St Gregory of Nyssa:

But whenever the time come that God shall have brought our nature back to the primal state of man, it will be useless to talk of such things then, and to imagine that objections based upon such things can prove God’s power to be impeded in arriving at His end. His end is one, and one only; it is this: when the complete whole of our race shall have been perfected from the first man to the last—some having at once in this life been cleansed from evil, others having afterwards in the necessary periods been healed by the Fire, others having in their life here been unconscious equally of good and of evil—to offer to every one of us participation in the blessings which are in Him, which, the Scripture tells us, “eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor thought ever reached.” But this is nothing else, as I at least understand it, but to be in God Himself; for the Good which is above hearing and eye and heart must be that Good which transcends the universe.39

In the transcendent life of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, creation will be made new—evil annihilated, suffering expunged, humanity restored and transfigured, the cosmos glorified. God will be all in all. Therefore, proposition #3 is false.

Universalists reject all conditionalist construals of the divine love.40 The God of the gospel wills the infinite good of all human beings, without limit or qualification. He commits himself to fulfill in all sinners the essential conditions of deifying union. He is the good shepherd who recklessly abandons his flock to search for the one lost sheep and is not satisfied until he finds it and restores it to his flock. He is the woman who frantically turns her house upside down to retrieve the one lost coin. He is the Great High Priest who offers himself on the cross in atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world. He is the Crucified who shatters the gates of hades and rescues all its inhabitants.41 He is the theanthropic Messiah who rises from death and inaugurates the New Creation. In the words of the John the Elder: “God is love” (1 John 4:8).

That evil, both in the form of the wicked themselves and in their “deserved” torments, should abide eternally was powerfully denounced by the 19th century Anglican theologian Thomas Allin as the greatest of heresies:

What are all heresies, all errors, that have stained the church of God, compared with this supreme heresy, this dualism, which seats evil on the throne of the universe, a power enduring as God himself? The torments, physical and mental, of the popular hell, awful as they are, recede into almost nothing as compared with the far more awful spectacle of God vanquished, of God trying to save but failing, and watching his children as they slowly sink beneath the endless sway of evil; of God’s Son returning, not in triumph, but in defeat; of the cross so far prostrate, paralyzed, vanquished.42

I do not know how to negotiate the differences between the universalist vision and the dogmatic commitments of the Catholic Church. I once asked the Lutheran theologian Robert W. Jenson how God’s love can be described as unconditional, given the plain teaching of Scripture. His reply: “Go back and reread the Bible.” I eventually came to realize that a hermeneutic change and paradigm shift was needed. So it may be for Catholicism. Nothing less than the gospel is at stake. For many the greater hope is judged too good to be true. I therefore proffer the wisdom of George MacDonald: “If you find what I tell you untrue, it will only be that it is not grand and free and bounteous enough. To think anything too good to be true, is to deny God—to say the untrue may be better than the true—that there might be a greater God than he.”43

(Revised: 29 August 2023)

Footnotes

1 Eleonore Stump, “The God of Love,” Church Life Journal (13 April 2023).

2 Eleonore Stump, “Dante’s Hell, Aquinas’s Moral Theory, and the Love of God,” Canadian Journal of Philosophy, 16 (1986): 194-195.

3 Stump, “God of Love,” fn. 1.

4 For patristic universalists, see Ilaria Ramelli, A Larger Hope? (Eugene: Cascade Books, 2019); for discussion of the above-mentioned modern universalists, see Alvin F. Kimel, Jr., Destined for Joy (Amazon, 2022).

5 On Augustine, see Jesse Couenhoven, Predestination (New York: T&T Clark, 2018), 19-49. 1. In addition to Couenhoven, my interpretation of Augustine is deeply informed by Han-Luen Kantzer Komline, Augustine on the Will (New York: Oxford University Press, 2020).

6 Augustine, Enchiridion 97.

7 Augustine, Predestination of the Saints 8.(13).

8 Augustine, Unfinished Work in Answer to Julian II.157.

9 Augustine, Against Two Letters of the Pelagians I.37.

10 I found the following works particularly persuasive: Austin Farrer, Faith and Speculation (New York: New York University Press, 1967); Herbert McCabe, “Freedom,” God Matters (Springfield: Templegate, 1987), 10-24; Herbert McCabe, “Causes and God,” Faith Within Reason (Continuum, 2007), 48-66; ibid., “Evil and Omnipotence,” 67-93; and Kathryn Tanner, God and Creation in Christian Theology (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1988).

11 James F. Ross, “Creation II,” in The Existence and Nature of God, ed. Alfred J. Freddoso, (Notre Dame: University of Notre Dame Press, 1983), 128.

12 Hugh J. McCann, Creation and the Sovereignty of God (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 2012), 103-108. Also see Robert Matava, Divine Causality and Human Free Choice (Boston: Brill, 2016).

13 Herbert McCabe, “On Evil and Omnipotence,” 75-76. Also see Roberto De La Noval, “Pelagianism Redivivus,” Modern Theology (2023): https://doi.org/10.1111/moth.12894. Noval writes: “How one conceives of the nature of divine transcendence, and more specifically the quality of God’s activity vis- à-vis God’s creatures, determines what kind of theodicy for hell a theologian will offer.”

14 On the compatibility of predestination with double agency, see W. Matthews Grant, Free Will and Divine Universal Causality (New York: Bloomsbury Academic, 2020), 171-181. On the infallibility of grace in Aquinas, see Denys Turner, Thomas Aquinas (New Haven: Yale University Press, 2014), 145-168; and Taylor Patrick  O’Neill, Grace, Predestination, and the Permission of Sin (Washington: Catholic University Press, 2019), 13-67. For a contrary take, see John Dool, “Predestination, Freedom, and the Logic of Love,” Logos, 11 (2008): 105-125.

15 Phillip Cary, Inner Grace (New York: Oxford University Press, 2008), 109.

16 Augustine, The Spirit and the Letter 3.5. Augustine would add that to achieve its proper end the grace of conversion must be supplemented with the grace of perseverance: “For, since they will not persevere unless they both can will to and do will to, they are given the ability and the will to persevere by the generosity of divine grace. Their will is, of course, set afire by the Holy Spirit to the point that they are able because they will to so strongly, but they will to so strongly because God makes them to will.” Grace and Rebuke 38.

17 Jesse Couenhoven, Stricken by Sin, Cured by Christ (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2013), 100.

18 Stephen J. Duffy, The Dynamics of Grace (Collegeville: Liturgical Press, 1993), 118.

19 Jesse Couenhoven, “Augustine’s Rejection of the Free-Will Defence,” Religious Studies, 43 (2007), 288.

20 See John Kronen and Eric Reitan, God’s Final Victory (New York: Continuum, 2011), 127-151; David Bentley Hart, That All Shall Be Saved (New Haven: Yale University Press, 2019), 171-187.

21 Isaac of Nineveh, The Second Part 39.6.

22 Ibid. 39.22.

23 Ibid. 39.6.

24 Stump, “The God of Love.”

25 James Chastek, “On the Antecedent And Consequent Will,” Just Thomism (24 January 2022).

26 If you beginning to think that a measure of disingenuity underlies the statement “God antecedently wills the salvation of all but wills the damnation of some by his consequent will,” you are not alone. It cannot be the case that when God brought the cosmos into being he did not know that some individuals would be damned. God is not surprised. He creates and damns in one eternal act.

27 David Bentley Hart, “What God Wills and What God Permits,” Public Orthodoxy (5 May 2020).

28 Commenting on 1 Cor 15:28, St Gregory of Nyssa writes: “Therefore, when every evil authority and ruler in our midst has been destroyed, and when there is no longer any passion lording over our nature, it is entirely necessary once there is nothing else holding power against us to subject all things to the ruler over all. And subjection to God is absolute alienation from evil. When, therefore, we all come to be outside evil by imitating our first fruits, then the whole batch of our nature, mixed with the first fruits and made one in accord with the conjoined body, will receive in itself the governance of the good alone. And thus, when the entire body of our nature has been mingled with the divine and pure nature, that subjection said to be the Son’s takes place through us, since the subjection successfully accomplished in his body refers to him who worked in us the grace of subjection.” On Christ’s Subjection 16.

“For his handing over the kingdom to the Father has the same meaning as bringing all people to God, by which we have ‘access in one Spirit to the Father.’ Therefore, at the time when all enemies are under God’s feet by having received the divine footprint in themselves, and when death has been destroyed . . . , then by the subjection of all of us—not understood as slavish humiliation but as kingship, incorruption, and blessedness—the one who lives in us is said by Paul to be subjected to God. He is the one who perfects our good through himself and does what is well pleasing to himself in us.” OCS 28.

29 Bonaventure, Breviloquium III.5.3.

30 Stump, “Dante’s Hell,” 196.

31 For an Orthodox reflection on the sufferings of the damned, written from a free-will perspective, see Dumitru Stăniloae, The Experience of God (Brookline: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 2013), vol. 6. Stăniloae offers a more serious and honest reflection on the infernal torments than attempts to diminish and minimize their severity (Hell Lite).

32 Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae I.23.3. Thomas is here speaking of predestination, but his statement applies equally to the free-will defense of hell.

33 If the dual account of divine and human agency is correct (summarized above), God can never, in fact, be a passive observer of the free acts of rational beings, including their sinful acts: he does not will sin but he necessarily wills the act of sin. If he did not, sin would not exist. As Aquinas writes: “The act of sin is a movement of the free will. Now the will of God is the cause of every movement, as Augustine declares (De Trin. iii. 4, 9). Therefore, God’s will is the cause of the act of sin” (ST I/II 79.2). See W. Matthews Grant, “Aquinas on How God Causes the Act of Sin Without Causing Sin Itself,” The Thomist 73 (2009): 455-96.

34 Hart, TASBS, 89-91.

35 Michael J. Dobbs, The Unchanging God of Love, 2nd ed. (Washington, D. C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 2008), 208. See Thomas Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles 74-76.

36 Athanasius, On the Incarnation 54.3.

37 Thomas F. Torrance, The Christian Doctrine of God, 2nd ed. (New York: T&T Clark, 2016), p. 243.

38 Thomas Aquinas, ST I.19.6.

39 Gregory of Nyssa, On the Soul and the Resurrection.

40 On the difference between unconditional and conditional love, see Kimel, 45-93.

41 That Christ rescues every soul in hades is asserted both by many of the Eastern Fathers and the liturgical hymnody of the Orthodox Church. See Hilarion Alfeyev, Christ the Conqueror of Hell (New York: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2011).

42 John Allin, Christ Triumphant (Eugene: Wipf & Stock, 2015), 36.

43 George MacDonald, Donal Grant, chap. 45.

* Those who have read my rejoinder to Fr Rooney’s critique of this article will notice that in my post-publication revisions I have incorporated material from it. This piece is now 2,300 words longer.

** I want to thank Tom Belt, whose assistance in the composition and revision of this article was invaluable. Needless to say, responsibility for all flaws and blunders rest completely with him. 😜

(Go to “Eleonore Stump and Hell”)

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218 Responses to Predestined to Glory: The Extravagant, Prodigal, and Omnipotent Love of God

  1. Fr Aidan Kimel says:

    The format of this essay is more formal than my usual blog postings. That’s because I wrote it in hope that I could persuade the Church Life Journal to publish it. Alas, they rejected it. But the happy consequence is that the piece gets published now, rather than months from now.

    The pdf form of the essay can also be downloaded here.

    Liked by 1 person

    • It’s a very beautiful post, Father. God bless you!

      This is truly why I’m Orthodox; He is the Beautiful One, God is Love! What could be more wonderful than that? And how could it not be true?

      Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think,
      according to the power that worketh in us,
      unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,
      world without end.
      Amen.
      ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3‬:‭20‬-‭21‬

      Liked by 2 people

  2. stmichael71 says:

    Here’s a post in which I not only defend and clarify Eleonore Stump’s views from Kimel’s criticisms, but I argue those criticisms illuminate – by contrast – why Stump looks right that universalism requires denying that God’s love for us is unconditional.

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  3. Very well said, Father. You nailed what the more astute Thomists have recognized as the “universalism problem,” which inheres in certain Thomistic takes on the beatific vision. They, then, will appeal to autonomy (not free will) w/an indwelling- (not character-) based beatific contingency.

    However intelligible may be the natura pura abstraction, we aren’t compelled to accept the premise that, in our concrete experience, we are ever not divinely indwelled. That’s, as you say, decisive. The universalism “problem” thus perdures.

    Fr Kimel wrote: “The indwelling Spirit is the decisive difference between Adamic freedom (the ability to choose between good and evil) and the freedom of grace (the necessary embrace of the good): by the gift of charity, we now love and delight in the irresistible Goodness of God. We are perfected not by the addition of a created quality but by uncreated grace, the dynamic and enlivening presence of the Holy Spirit.”

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Tom says:

    It would have been very good for CLJ readers to read this. Their loss.

    It’s not that every universalist agrees on every detail of explanation and defense. There are things here I don’t personally embrace, but there’s no doubting the unrelenting nature of divine love and grace which pursue us without fail and from which there is no final or eternal escape. The integrity of human agency – however understood – cannot be the capacity to sever oneself from arriving at one’s highest good in God. Fixing that love at the center – as you do – and working out from there, one can’t also rationally imagine the final loss of any rational creature.

    Amen. Thanks for the hard work Fr Aidan.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. A Sinner says:

    Perhaps Church Life Journal might be persuaded to publish a rebuttal by someone within the Catholic tradition, such as Dr. Jordan Daniel Wood?

    Like

    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      I have no idea if the editorial staff might be so persuaded; but clearly I’m not the one to persuade them. 😎

      Like

  6. Fr Aidan Kimel says:

    For those who cannot access Fr Rooney’s response to my article, here it is:

    Al Kimel has recently put up on his blog a post in which criticizes Eleonore Stump’s essay on universalism.

    Stump’s essay: https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/can-hell-and-the-god-of-love-coexist/
    Kimel’s post: https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2023/06/17/predestined-to-glory-the-extravagant-prodigal-and-omnipotent-love-of-god/

    I have some thoughts about reinterpreting Stump’s claim to make clear that her views do not necessarily require what Kimel thinks they do. But, in fact, Kimel’s responses might have helped (at least to me) make clear what goes right in Stump’s very brief and obscure initial statement of her reasons for rejecting universalism.

    First, ‘universalism’ should be interpreted to refer to hard universalism – the thesis that it is necessarily the case that all are saved. On such views, if God chooses to create human beings or to raise them to share in His life, God must therefore also, in His goodness or love, ensure that all are saved. Kimel in this vein blurs views, claiming that God’s unconditional love requires that “He commits himself to fulfill in all sinners the necessary conditions of salvation.” Universalism does not require that God’s love fulfill merely the necessary conditions for all to be saved, however, since Stump believes this too is true. Universalism requires instead that God fulfill those conditions sufficient to ensure all are saved. This is what Stump believes is false.

    Stump assumes as a premise that “there cannot be a union of love between two persons, even if one of them is divine, unless there are two persons and two wills to unite.” Kimel accepts this, so I assume it too.

    Kimel finds troublesome Stump’s inference to the conclusion that “universalism is not only not a consequence of God’s love; it is not so much as compatible with God’s love.” Stump implies that universalism is incompatible with the view that there is a union of love between two persons, with two wills to unite. I will come back to this claim at the end of the article, after setting up my response dialectically, dealing first with the other objections that Kimel raises to Stump’s account.

    Kimel understands Stump to reject universalism solely on the grounds that “it is not within the power even of an omnipotent entity to make a person freely will anything.” But Kimel points out that universalists can accept it is a necessary condition that all come to salvation freely, that is, through their own decisions. Many universalists offer different speculative scenarios how this occurs and God is able to bring it about. He also notes that traditional Latin theology has held that efficacious grace can directly change the will, making someone freely will what God wants them to. There is no principled metaphysical reason, Kimel concludes, that God changing all people’s wills unilaterally would make it false that all people come to love God freely.

    Conversely, Kimel argues, it would be impossible for any human being to resist God’s efficacious grace. Kimel therefore concludes that theological determinism (the view that God’s decisions make ours occur necessarily) is necessarily or obviously true: that God always acts ‘unilaterally.’ Kimel later assumes – contrary to Stump’s claims about damnation being a product of free will – that God would be directly responsible for damnation, since “…the Creator and Judge of heaven and earth has the last word. His will be done. Self-damnation is divine damnation.” That is, given theological determinism, God would be inflicting this anguish upon people for reasons that were not ultimately due to them.

    Now, obviously, Stump rejects the possibility of theological determinism – as do I – and so Kimel’s objection fails to engage with the position. It is not plausibly the case that theological determinism is necessarily true, and all Stump needs is that it is possibly the case that theological determinism is false for her account to provide a reason God allows hell.

    In Stump’s view, God infallibly changes the will, but only indirectly in such a way that the creature remains the primary source of their acts – He acts by infusing charity in response to creaturely quiescence, so that, while His activity cannot be ‘resisted’ in itself (since God is omnipotent), it can be resisted diachronically in virtue of the creature’s sin and rejection of His love. But, indeed, that free will constitutes a ‘metaphysical limit’ to God’s power is no necessary part of the view. Instead, all Stump needs to say is that God had good reasons for being responsive in the above way to human free will in giving efficacious grace. That is, He could have set things up differently, but He didn’t, for good reasons.

    What Stump takes those reasons will become clearer in response to the central positive argument of the article. Kimel gives a positive argument for universalism, derived from DB Hart, which is simply a version of the logical problem of evil. The problem is this: if God can cause all rational creatures to be saved (He is omnipotent), and He is all-loving (He wills that all come into union with Himself), then God will do it.

    Kimel argues that we cannot escape this dilemma by proposing that God has good reasons not to save all. “If God eternally wills himself as our final good, does it make sense to speak of a higher good than theosis, than our becoming gods in God?” That is, there is no greater good in the created universe than theosis. Therefore, since a person is capable of union with God, and there is no greater good than union with God, God in His love will necessarily ensure that all persons are united with Him.

    Here is an alternative way to resolve the dilemma that Kimel does not address, but which is central to Stump’s essay: God does achieve universal union with Himself and all persons. This is compatible with the possibility of damnation, as God can be united with His creatures in many distinct ways, not all of which are identical with the Beatific Vision. All things will be united with Christ, even though not all will experience the Beatific Vision. What it is for God to find union with the damned is distinct, given what the damned are freely like. Thus, as she puts it, given the state of the damned, “the office of love will change from what it might have been.” For that reason, “God can love unrequitedly; but God is not disappointed when he does,” since He loves the person who actually exists and achieves union with them in the eschaton to the degree that those damned are able to receive. God’s desire that all be united with Him is fulfilled.

    It can be objected that God does not achieve the highest good this person is capable of achieving, that is, union in full love and joy. But Stump’s response seems compelling to me: why can God only love people that love Him back? It is simply true that “God loves some people who do not love him.” Further, if God could not do this, that would be “to wish that Jerome was replaced by the person he might have been is not to desire the good for the actual Jerome; and it is a rejection of the actual Jerome in favor of desire for the non-actual possible person. To turn away from Jerome in disappointment and wish for the non-existent person he might have been is not loving of Jerome.” Plausibly, for God to only love people in light of the greatest possible state of those persons would not be to love them for who they are, but only for who they could become.

    This turns on its head, I think, another objection Kimel raises against Stump. Kimel argues that, if going to hell is possible, then “the divine love is unveiled as conditional, limited, restricted: God wills the salvation of sinners only if they repent.” If God allows hell and is satisfied with it, then He must not love all human beings and desire union with them. Instead, God’s love would be ‘conditional’ for His creatures, where He only loves those whom He causes to come into union with Him.

    But this does not follow. Kimel cites Aquinas on God hating the damned, but Aquinas claims, like Stump, that God loves unrequitedly those who reject God. Stump’s claims about different ‘offices of love’ are reflected in Aquinas’ claim that God “does not will every good for every one.” This is compatible with God continuing to will goods other than the good of eternal life to the damned, such that they are capable of receiving. It is precisely this fact that allows Stump to claim that God is not disappointed by the damned’s rejection of Him and that God’s consequent will is ultimately fulfilled.

    Since God can love people that do not repent, and His love is therefore not conditional on whether they eventually repent, God’s love is compatible with the situation where some reject Him forever. Precisely because God’s love is unconditional, God’s desire for union with all beings is not foreclosed or diminished by the creature’s rejection of Him. Only the creature themselves poses that obstacle to receiving God’s love and being unified with Him. As Stump puts it, “Hell is the inner condition of those who close themselves out from any desire for love.”

    As noted, however, Kimel finds it absurd that anyone could love another and allow such bad consequences as hell. Instead, the consequences of damnation are far more than a bad choice: eternal anguish and suffering forever. Kimel therefore points out that “God was free not to create rational beings.” He concludes that “this is what the Triune Deity of absolute love would have done if he could not ensure the eternal blessedness of all.” Kimel paints the bad consequences in stark terms so as to illustrate that the consequences of permitting anyone to be damned are so serious that a loving God could not permit them for any cause whatsoever. If it was impossible for God to achieve union with rational beings without allowing this possibility, then God’s love would demand He not create any such beings.

    One might notice, however, that Stump’s initial claim now seems to follow. Stump implied initially that universalism is incompatible with the view that there is a union of love between two persons, with two wills to unite. We can interpret this not so much as a claim about free will as it is about God. If universalism were true, God necessarily could not allow anyone to reject Him. This makes it impossible for there to be a contingent union between God and those whom He loves. God loves Himself necessarily in the communion of the Trinitarian Persons. But, while this union of Persons is necessary, it is also necessarily a union of wills. If it is essential to God to share His life with another, if God cannot do otherwise, that Person will be identical with Him in all things but hypostasis. The Father, Son, and Spirit, therefore, have one intellect and will – one essence which they share.

    If God wants to be unified with someone with a distinct non-divine Person and a distinct will, a creature, then it is in fact impossible for God necessarily to ensure that this person accepts His offer of salvation. The impossibility lies not, however, on the side of creaturely will being unable to be changed by God – God could have set up the world to ensure that all are saved. Rather, the impossibility of God necessarily saving all lies in God’s love: if we were the sort of thing God could not love without ensuring we loved Him back, merely because we essentially are persons, then God could simply not create persons not ‘already always’ essentially divine Persons. For, if we were the sort of thing that not even God could cause to be without ensuring that we have His essence (since that’s all that grace is), then we’d be divine. And divine Persons are necessarily identical in essence with Him, which entails we could not have a distinct will from His.

    (And I’d add DB Hart’s odd theology of God works out these conclusions quite clearly in ‘You Are Gods.’ If God necessarily saves us, we are somehow essentially divine persons – and vice-versa.]

    But, in fact, God can love and desire union with creatures – with persons distinct from Himself. At least, it appears for all intents and purposes metaphysically possible that God creates rational creatures distinct from Himself. The universalist’s claim that hell’s consequences are so bad that a loving God should rather not create human beings can seem compelling only if we ignore, I think, that Christ died on the Cross while we were still sinners. On the one hand, we know from that that God actually does love all those who killed Him. Those persons were not in a morally good state, and God did not merely love the future persons they might become after aeons in universalist gehenna. Christ asked His Father to forgive the very persons who killed Him. On the other hand, Christ seems precisely to have been willing to assume all the consequences of damnation upon Himself, short of sin. Instead of a “Faustian bargain that nullifies the Gospel,” God’s acceptance of the cost of allowing damnation is what God assumed from eternity in willing to die on Calvary for us.

    In the end, then, it seems to me Stump is correct. God has allowed damnation precisely because He wants free creatures to be in free union with Him. God knew the consequences of allowing this, and assumed the cost upon Himself. He did so simply because, even if we reject Him forever, He will still love us. He willed to allow us to be separated from Him only in a world where He would never separate Himself from us.

    As Kimel himself notes, “Christ died for the ungodly!” (Rom 5:6). Stump’s position entails that Christ would have died for any person who rejects His love forever. Kimel, with all universalists, cannot countenance that this is possible. He says it is obvious that any God who would do this is not the true God, and that he knows this by moral intuition. While universalists are right that God perhaps could have done something different than allow anyone to reject Him forever, I think their purported moral intuitions are simply contradicted by what Christians know God did: He died on the Cross for us, while we were sinners. That decision does not seem to have been conditional on our accepting His love.

    “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

    Liked by 1 person

    • David says:

      “God loves Himself necessarily in the communion of the Trinitarian Persons. But, while this union of Persons is necessary, it is also necessarily a union of wills.”

      Just a sidenote but, as Father Rooney states later, there is only one will in God. But in that case it does not make sense to describe the communion of the Trinitarian Persons as “a union of wills” – it would be just as nonsensical as describing the Persons as a union of substances.

      Later Father Rooney states:

      “For, if we were the sort of thing that not even God could cause to be without ensuring that we have His essence (since that’s all that grace is), then we’d be divine. And divine Persons are necessarily identical in essence with Him, which entails we could not have a distinct will from His.”

      This is probably the most important premise in Rooney’s piece – but I don’t see any actual argument for it.

      As I see it, our wills will be *united to* God’s will – but that is not the same thing as being literally identical to the numerically singular will of God. It’s just that we are the sort of things that God could not *morally* create without safeguarding that we eventually had our (numerically distinct) wills joined to His – but that does not risk breaching the Creator-creature barrier. It’s just that God must do what is Good – and it just so happens that allowing hell would not be good. Who would have thought it?

      “On the other hand, Christ seems precisely to have been willing to assume all the consequences of damnation upon Himself, short of sin.”

      Universalists can certainly affirm this but I do not see how Father Rooney can – Christ died but he did not spend an eternity in hell.

      Liked by 1 person

  7. Tom says:

    Notice that Fr Rooney actually agrees with you, Fr Al. God ‘must’ be thought of as loving all, even if the measure of love each finally knows is in part up to each creature. It’s still the case that all final ends ‘must’ (even on Rooney’s account) express God’s unfailing love. So Rooney too posits the ‘necessity of love’. He just defines that love as compatible with freely permitting some to fail to achieve their highest good in God. It’s all a bullshit game of words if you ask me. Excusez mon français.

    And there’s this: “Now, obviously, Stump rejects the possibility of theological determinism – as do I – and so Kimel’s objection fails to engage with the position. It is not plausibly the case that theological determinism is necessarily true, and all Stump needs is that it is possibly the case that theological determinism is false for her account to provide a reason God allows hell.”

    But that last line is false. Theological determinism may be false and it be true (on other grounds) that God can have no reason to permit an eternal hell; i.e., the moral argument. But Rooney sees this later and addresses it:

    “The universalist’s claim that hell’s consequences are so bad that a loving God should rather not create human beings can seem compelling only if we ignore, I think, that Christ died on the Cross while we were still sinners. On the one hand, we know from that that God actually does love all those who killed Him. Those persons were not in a morally good state, and God did not merely love the future persons they might become after aeons in universalist gehenna.”

    How is it possible to miss the point of the moral argument so badly? Christ dying for us “while we were sinners” cannot mean such love acts entirely without reference to the good of those loved. Consider:

    First, even Rooney admits this when he agrees that all final ends (beatific in heaven or agonizing in hell) must instantiate some measure of God’s love for rational creatures. So when God expresses his love for us in this, that Christ died for us “while we were sinners,” the future is (and indeed, on Rooney’s account also) “must” be in view. “While we were sinners” cannot mean “with no thought of our what such love intends for us.” It simply means to demonstrate that there was nothing in us as sinners that warranted or required such love, that nothing in us or about us obliges God to so act (which no universalist believes despite Fr Rooney’s repeated misrepresentations). Even Hebrews confirms it. It was “for the joy set before him” that Christ endured the Cross (dying for us ‘while we were sinners’). And other passages link God’s loving act in Christ to God’s future intentions for those he loves. So Rooney’s point here against the moral argument fails.

    Secondly, that God loves us while our state as sinners is deplorable is *not* an example of God loving sinners who are in an irreparably deplorable state in hell. As Hebrews shows again, love acts redemptively/purposefully “for the joy set before him” (the joy of bringing many sons to glory). That joy may be said to be held out to those Paul refers to in Romans as beloved “while they were sinners,” but it cannot be held out for the eternally damned. Rooney’s example here also fails to show that the moral argument if false.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Tom says:

      Sorry for the “BS” comment. I don’t mean to claim anyone is being intentionally obscure or evasive.

      Carry on. ;o)

      Liked by 2 people

    • stmichael71 says:

      Just to focus on one claim: “‘While we were sinners’ cannot mean ‘with no thought of our what such love intends for us'” or, earlier, “Christ dying for us ‘while we were sinners’ cannot mean such love acts entirely without reference to the good of those loved.”

      Christ does act for the good of those loved. Being actually deified is not the only good Christ can will for us. Here’s another one: Christ can will, and does accomplish for all, that the font of grace is opened for all. That is, Christ defeated death and brought gifts to men, making them capable of sharing His glory. That is a good. That joy can be held out toward the damned. Indeed, on the view I presented, that is exactly what occurs. They only fail to take advantage of that joy given the resistance of their own will.

      Like

      • Tom says:

        This is the point though – that God’s love for us in Christ does relate to (and express) God’s intentions for our future. That is, that God loves people who are in bad moral states ‘while he’s loving them’ does not imply God’s love can manifest itself in the goodness of sustaining bad moral states ‘eternally’, for the simple reason that we know God’s love for those in bad moral states is their redemption from those states. One cannot assume from the Romans passage that since the existence of those loved by Christ manifests God’s goodness in some measure (God is loving them and their existence instantiates some measure of being loved by God), ergo the same would be true of those suffering eternally, ergo God’s permitting such torment and suffering must be compatible with God’s being Love and the Good as such.

        Additionally, as I mentioned, you too (like the universalist view you argue against) believe God ‘must’ be thought of as loving all, even if in your case the measure of love each finally knows is (in part) up to each creature. It’s still the case that all final ends must necessarily express God’s love, the claim you oppose when made by the universalist. But you don’t think in your case this implies you believe God “owes” us love. Note, on this point you haven’t opposed the universalist’s claim that divine love is incompatible with eternal suffering and damnation; you’ve opposed it on the grounds that they claim it’s ‘necessary’ as such. But you also posit this necessity as such. That you see it maintained in diverse measure (of goodness given to the glorified and to the damned, variously) doesn’t change the ‘necessity’ in question, for all end states must, you hold, actualize some measure of God’s goodness and love. So you’ve no basis any longer to complain that universalists falsely view God’s love as necessary or as “owed” to those he loves. You make the same claim. (If you insist otherwise, I’ll ask you the same question Jordan asked which you avoided and never really answered – i.e., whether we can conceive of God as the Good, as Love, and grant the possibility of his creating a world in which the salvation of none is secured.)

        Liked by 2 people

        • stmichael71 says:

          “…we know God’s love for those in bad moral states is their redemption from those states.”

          How do we know this?

          “One cannot assume from the Romans passage that since the existence of those loved by Christ manifests God’s goodness in some measure (God is loving them and their existence instantiates some measure of being loved by God), ergo the same would be true of those suffering eternally, ergo God’s permitting such torment and suffering must be compatible with God’s being Love and the Good as such.”

          Why not?

          “…you too (like the universalist view you argue against) believe God ‘must’ be thought of as loving all…”

          And? I never argued anyone should believe God is not loving. I have argued that God can love us without us loving Him, even if that persists forever. I argued that it would be bad if God cannot love us without us loving Him, because that makes His love dependent upon us.

          “…you also posit this necessity as such.”

          I do not posit any such necessity, as universalists do, by which God becomes dependent upon His creatures.

          “…whether we can conceive of God as the Good, as Love, and grant the possibility of his creating a world in which the salvation of none is secured.”

          If by ‘secured’ you mean ‘necessitated,’ the answer is: yes. If by ‘secured’ you mean merely ‘occurs,’ then I granted – as I did with Jordan – that God would not create a world in which none are saved. But I disagree with you and Jordan on the grounds for that. My claim was that it was plausibly contrary to His plan to give grace and enable us to be saved, if none actually are saved. This is not because it would not be good of God to allow anyone to be lost, but because God would have contradictory intentions in creating human beings for union with Him, raising them to grace, and then none achieving this end.

          My answer here is just the inverse to what I say about contingent universalism: it’s quite possible and compatible with all I say that God could create a world in which all are saved. That intention to create a world and freely save all is not contradictory with God’s goodness or the plan He had to give grace. Neither case has anything to do with the central issue of whether God can have any good reason to allow any to possibly be lost.

          The reason is that (as I pointed out in my response to Kimel), if God could not love a person who rejects Him, but must ensure that all persons are in the state which is best for them (or something like this), then this best state for persons is to be a divine person. Then, if God necessarily does this for all persons, no person is not a divine person. If God does this necessarily, given merely the nature of persons, then to be a person is necessarily to be a divine person. If this is true, being a person is to be divine by nature. [This is what I mean by being ‘owed’ grace, btw]. And, if there is a divine person, its will is not distinct from that of God.

          But this is all false and contrary to Christian theology, as well as metaphysically absurd. God can love created persons who have a will distinct from His own and who are not necessarily in union with Him. But, if the latter is true, then this is simply what makes it possible for human persons not to be in union with Him.

          So, what I object to is not any use of the word ‘necessary’ in reference to God (as, clearly, there are lots of legitimate uses of this word – God exists ‘necessarily,’ etc.), but that it cannot be necessarily the case that we are in union with God.

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    • Tom, I’ve followed this for several days and saw your disappointment re certain points of confusion. I’ll respond here so it’ll thread better in certain browsers.

      The Christologies & cosmologies of JDW & DBH can be roughly mapped to Joe Bracken’s creatio ex Deo. For all of them, the hypostatic union is fitting (not necessary), creation’s gratuitous, the analogy of being holds & the potencies of human nature are relative perfections. Ergo, human persons enjoy their primary beatitude, finitely, as adoptees.

      Confusion often ensues from mistaking essential & person logics. JDW’s personal logic, informed by Maximian & Neo-Chalcedonian elements, differs somewhat from DBH’s personal logic, informed by Bulgakov’s Sophiology, but, while those logics go beyond the analogia, they don’t go without it.

      I commend the work of Brandon Gallaher, who uses Bracken to correct Bulgakov’s infelicities. Bracken, himself, engages Hegel, German idealists & Peirce, but he tames their insights with certain neoclassical commitments.

      The personal logics of Bracken, JDW & DBH roughly converge on the same Totus Christus conception of mutually constituted I – Thous. These logics aren’t drastically different from the personalist account of Norris Clarke or from Don Gelpi’s metaphysic of intersubjectivity.

      The universalisms of JDW & DBH don’t follow, explicitly or by implication, directly or indirectly, from rejections of either the analogy of being or the gratuity of creation. They follow, rather, from applying the Anselmian principle to the Trinitarian missio ad extra:
      potuit, decuit, ergo fecit: ‘twas possible & “fitting,” ergo accomplished. They follow from moral intuitions grown from the special revelation of Who Abba is & How Abba acts as manifest in Jesus. They don’t deny the gratuity of grace either as it gifts us a superabundance beyond abundance, a divine intimacy beyond friendship, just not a morally unintelligible dichotomy between hating God and divine nuptial bliss.

      Also, DBH doesn’t deny sin or culpability as some infer. Universalists rather say no to the capacity to definitively reject God. While we of course maintaining that we can have sufficient knowledge of goodness & God to culpably sin and even gravely so, we simply don’t have sufficient knowledge of God to definitively reject Him or absolutely so. All persons would freely & infallibly follow their inclinations, per the logoi of human nature, once given such a definitive operative knowledge of God. That knowledge could be infused by any number of ways & degrees of divine presencing known to God, alone, per each person’s dispositions.

      It may be best that we as universalists simply reject premises that employ terms defined in such a way as not to even successfully refer in our own systems, or, at least that we make clearer that we’re stipulating to certain premises & definitions only for argument’s sake, e.g as we inhabit an alternate take only to demonstrate how it self-subverts, whether thru incompatibilities & incompossibilities or reductios ad absurdum, which can include violations of our most widely shared parental instincts, aesthetic sensibilities, moral intuitions & common sense interpretations of freedom & determination.

      Well, those are the major caricatures I saw. Inadvertent though they may be.

      Like

      • Tom says:

        Thanks John. It’s been decades since I read Bracken so I’m not sure I’m following you. I’m a very simple-minded guy. ;o)

        It seems that by ‘essential’ vs ‘personal’ logics, you mean different modes of relating and becoming, no? Essential = the ‘givens’ of existence, the goodness and grace of being, the transcendent Spirit who haunts consciousness, everywhere present but only to faith, etc. Personal = the intentional and deliberative mode of being present to oneself and the world, intentional gratitude and the sort of benevolent willing that flows from gratitude; i.e., everything not a ‘given’ of our existence.

        What we call our being ‘transcendentally oriented’ toward the good would be the sense in which the ‘essential’ has its origin and ground in God and operates irresistibly within the scope of a teleology aimed at God as final end. The ‘personal’ then refers to the unique use each of us makes in relating ourselves to ourselves and our world, right? When we say there’s no escaping the transcendental ground or grasp of our own being, we mean the ‘personal’ can never deliberate its way out of its own ‘essential’ frame. We can misrelate (personally) “within” the transcendental (essential) givens of being, but never out of them completely. And this is one reason why irrevocable loss of our highest well-being in God can never be foreclosed upon, because we are asymmetrically related to the essential possibilities of our existence. We didn’t determine those possibilities and we cannot rewire them.

        If I’m following you at all, it’s not a stretch to imagine what makes hell the agonizing experience it is, how we each tailor-make our own hell, and how it is hell can never be locked from the inside or outside.

        I think you and I differ on the terms in which the ‘personal’ comes to be what God intends, i.e., how it is saved (since the personal, not the essential, ‘does’ the choosing, consenting, etc.). But we agree there’s no foreclosure upon the possibility of achieving our final end in God.

        Liked by 1 person

        • No, that’s it. By essential, we mean natures & logoi. By personal, we mean tropoi. Participatory logic refers to natures. Nature’s gifted per the gratuity of creation. The gratuity of grace operates via tropos. The take away being that JDW & DBH aren’t doing “participation” as suggested elsewhere on this thread.

          I wasn’t responding to your reply, above, but to pleas for the Orthodox to clarify certain misconceptions, below. I didn’t want my response to be an eighth of an inch wide in certain browsers, so I moved up here with it.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Tom says:

            I thought Jordan and David disagreed over the meaning and import of ‘person’ and ‘personal’ and that their logics on this were not quite so lined up. But maybe I’m not recalling the exchange well.

            When you say ‘the gratuity of grace’ operates via trops’ what do you have in mind? I should think the gratuity of grace is established via the ‘givens’ of nature (freely and unnecessarily created), and that this essential gratuity is embraced (personally, tropically if you want) through deliberation and contemplation, etc.

            Like

          • I’m with JDW in thinking that he & DBH are not as far apart as DBH seems to imagine. Importantly, they agree on the main event – that we’re mutually constituted in the Totus Christus. I don’t think DBH gives JDW enough credit for how JDW appropriates Hegel. For his part, I don’t think JDW objects to Sophiology at all, when properly conceived (e.g. per Gallaher), but only maintains that the Maximian logos & tropos approach doesn’t need it to do Christology & cosmology.

            To agree w/your point, the tropoi are, in a sense, encoded in the logoi vis a vis their potencies. The distinction, for me, comes into play vis a vis grace b/c I don’t see the Fall, however one conceives it, as wounding our primary nature. It affected rather our tropos. Grace operates tropically. This stance leads directly to your Maximian irrevocability thesis. Our vicious habits come as evil parasitizes our essential goodness. But those habits only situate themselves halfway between our acts & potencies, only ever hindering their tropic reductions but never obliterating those potencies, only ever obscuring but never fully eclipsing our natural goodness as imagoes Dei.

            Not sure this helps.

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          • to be clear, I meant to say that JDW doesn’t appropriate Hegel uncritically. DBH, for his part, doesn’t believe one can let the Hegelian camel’s head into one’s systematic tent without the whole camel following & defecating all over the place. My words, not his.

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        • More specifically to where you & I may differ, it likely has something to do with counterfactual dynamics. If, for example, Báñezians, Molinists & certain Open Theists all affirm that grace is non-necessitating (which is important to agree on!), the disagreements are about just how that might be so. I think you and I agree that God knows what might & might not happen, if only b/c we affirm Maximian logoi & our limiting potencies (incl limitations that make us free). Where we might disagree might be which things God knows re what would or would not happen, ergo, what we would or would not do, infallibly blah blah blah? ;>)

          Fr Rooney & Prof TP O’Neill have had a very interesting exchange re the grounding of counterfactuals. Whatever one’s stance re the various solutions proposed, they well raise many of the most salient questions.

          Alas, it’s all over my head. But that’s my inchoate grasp.

          Like

  8. MAC says:

    From what I understand from Rooney, if God is truly loving, good, and beautiful, then it’s necessary in a philosophical sense that God create the world with the possibility some might suffer for all eternity. If he creates a universalist world where all WILL be saved, because he’s not willing to let anyone perish, then this compromises the gospel on Rooney’s view. Am I correct, here in understanding his view? If so, this seems intuitively very odd. Why could it not be true that the individual qua individual could theoretically be lost for all eternity but God would never create a community of individuals in which this was the case? Does asserting that REALLY amount to a domino effect that ends up crushing the heart of the Christian faith? That seems absurd to me. If that’s true, then maybe something’s wrong with the Christian faith. But nothing is wrong with the Christian faith. So, I don’t think Rooney’s view can be correct.

    I don’t really understand the double agency view, and from what I do understand, I don’t accept it. I think some type of quasi paradoxical mix of libertarianism and ethical intellectualism is probably true (and ultimately not contradictory). But beyond the finer philosophical points, simply on an intuitive level, it seems more likely that God would create a universalist world than let anyone freely delude herself in ignorance for all eternity (I’m using Maximian paradoxical language here). To say that St. Isaac’s intuition, borne out of the fires of a deep asceticism, leads to heresy can’t be right.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Joe says:

    “….God’s acceptance of the cost of allowing damnation is what God assumed from eternity in willing to die on Calvary for us.”
    “God knew the consequences of allowing this, and assumed the cost upon Himself.”

    I’m quite sure the cost would ultimately be laid upon those suffering for eternity.

    Unless, of course, God will completely share in their eternal suffering; that God will suffer with them for eternity. Otherwise, God has not assumed the cost upon himself. Rather, he simply accepted the cost that he imposed upon his creatures.

    Unless God shares—experientially—in eternal misery, then he has assumed no costs. Period.

    Like

    • Robert F says:

      Yes, it’s the eternal, everlasting, forever-enduring, total, inescapable, concentrated suffering, which surely would involve not being able to attend to anything else but that suffering, the most excruciating aspect of which would be absolute hopelessness, that would make Hell Hell. God could not endure hell, since God cannot experience Hell. God could not assume the cost of Hell upon himself, certainly not by experiencing it, since he can’t experience it in a way that damnation, as infernalists imagine it, would require.

      Liked by 1 person

    • stmichael71 says:

      According to some modern theologians, Balathasar, (and earlier, Calvin, I believe), Christ did experientially share in damnation.

      I don’t think Christ shared in damnation in His divine nature, since God is impassible and cannot suffer. This is what I mean by God assuming the cost upon Himself: Christ’s own self is united thereafter to all humanity, including the damned.

      As I’ve put it elsewhere, (https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/hard-universalism-grace-and-creaturely-freedom/), First, I think that Christ unites His own self to those in hell, and so is with them, in that respect, forever.

      Eleonore Stump has a theory like mine in her Atonement book, where Christ’s cry of dereliction on the Cross results from a psychological union with all those who experience sin and suffering. The human nature of Christ is certainly the respect in which God could bear the psychological and physical costs for sin, as Scripture tells us that He did, so I take it that this scenario is possible. Then, I think it is possible that Christ retains that psychic link with all humanity in His glorified state. While that link no more affects His happiness, it can instead communicate His joy toward all the damned. That they fail to receive it is only on account of their own resistance.

      Like

      • Joe says:

        •“According to some modern theologians, Balathasar, (and earlier, Calvin, I believe), Christ did experientially share in damnation.”

        •“While that link no more affects His happiness, it can instead communicate His joy toward all the damned.”

        Christ didshare in damnation? No, it is purported to be an eternal state.

        But since you maintain that the state of “the damned” does not affect his happiness, you conceded that he does not share in damnation. Damnation is, above all, a state of being; an experience. Christ does not share in their state and therefore has not assumed the ultimate cost (the experience eternal suffering) upon himself.

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      • Joe says:

        “I think that Christ unites His own self to those in hell…”

        Also, you never answered this question. You contend that “the damned” have fully rejected Christ. Yet, you also contend that Christ unites himself to those in hell, presumably to supply them with some good.

        But “the damned” have consummately rejected Christ and want nothing to do with him, much less be united with him in any way. Clearly, Christ is not honoring their rejection. Why is that?

        And if God will dishonor their will in this manner, why stop there?

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        • stmichael71 says:

          As to the first concern that Christ did not ‘really’ experience damnation, I have no interest in defending those theologians who claim it. I merely pointed out that some have defended the view.

          As to the second, I have not said Christ must ‘honor’ the rejection of grace by the damned. The freely willed resistance of the damned to God does, however, make it comprehensible that Christ is doing nothing wrong if He were to leave the damned in resistance to Him, since what comes first in the order of explanation would be their choice to reject Him, not His choice not to cause them to love Him.

          There are then two ways to understand the claim “Christ is not honoring their rejection.” If what ‘honor’ means is: Christ did not consult them when He chose to become incarnate and die for them, that is true. But it is not true that He failed to honor their will in becoming united with them, since He is uniting Himself with them only insofar as it does not affect their will. Thus, there is an obvious sense in which one can understand ‘honor their rejection’ to mean that He does good things for them only short of changing their will. For, the latter can be true.

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          • kenanada says:

            Father Rooney says ” The freely willed resistance of the damned to God does, however, make it comprehensible that Christ is doing nothing wrong if He were to leave the damned in resistance to Him, since what comes first in the order of explanation would be their choice to reject Him, not His choice not to cause them to love Him.”

            No, what comes first in the order of explanation is that an omnipotent, omniscient God made the decision to create man with the capacity to reject Him forever and live eternally in abject misery. Are you sure your God is love? If I had the same power and knowledge with regard to my cat, I love her too much too risk that she exist in a state of irreparable harm. But perhaps, I am more loving than your God.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            “…what comes first in the order of explanation is that an omnipotent, omniscient God made the decision to create man with the capacity to reject Him forever and live eternally in abject misery.”

            He did make a decision to create man with the capacity to freely love God, but a capacity by which (accidentally) man could also reject God. God did not make a decision that anyone should *actually* reject Him; and we know this, since the capacity is good in itself. Specifically, this capacity had as its goal that created free person to choose to love God. If love of God is impossible without such a capacity, then the value of the capacity lies in the possibility of loving God – which seems to me among the greatest goods for us – even if it makes possible other evils, such as damnation.

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          • kenanada says:

            Father Rooney says, “We can simply deny that what God does is aimed to cause them to suffer, and hold that it is instead aimed to do exactly the opposite.

            So, in short, God maintains the damned in existence because He loves them. He wishes to and achieves various goods for them, even though the damned do not accept or delight in what God gives them. But that does not make God’s gifts any less good.”

            Father Rooney, seriously…how much power does your God have? He cannot even achieve what he aims to do. He intends to cause the opposite of suffering and ends up “inadvertently” creating beings who suffer endlessly because He maintains their existence. Then He tries to show them love, desperately yearning to make the damned understand that He only means to do them good, but He just can’t reach them. His gifts are rejected. He has created beings who are more powerful to achieve their own destinies than He is. Your God seems to be analogous to the creator of AI run amok.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            “Father Rooney, seriously…how much power does your God have? He cannot even achieve what he aims to do.”

            Since I think God is not only power, but also love, I don’t think He has to exercise every power He can. So, when I said He loves them, I think that’s intuitively part of why God does not change their wills – because it is good for them to be capable of making their own choices. And a world of creatures capable of making their own choices, I think, is what He aimed to do when He created human beings and what He achieved. While you might not like God’s desire to have made free persons who were capable of rejecting His love, it seems to me that a loving God could have desired this (and did, I think).

            Like

          • kenanada says:

            Father Rooney say, “He did make a decision to create man with the capacity to freely love God, but a capacity by which (accidentally) man could also reject God. God did not make a decision that anyone should *actually* reject Him; and we know this, since the capacity is good in itself. Specifically, this capacity had as its goal that created free person to choose to love God. If love of God is impossible without such a capacity, then the value of the capacity lies in the possibility of loving God – which seems to me among the greatest goods for us – even if it makes possible other evils, such as damnation.”

            Again, Father Rooney. How much power does your God have? God did not make a decision that anyone should actually reject Him, but it happened accidentally? When the Trinity huddled up and came up with this plan, didn’t a member of the Godhead foresee that something could go terribly wrong? No One suggested that freedom for man might mean the eternal misery of billions, evil that could never be banished, a blight on God’s perfect record? Really? This is what you think God envisioned when He wanted to create sons and daughters who would freely choose Him. I’m thinking that your God may have serious creation regret.

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          • stmichael71 says:

            “How much power does your God have? God did not make a decision that anyone should actually reject Him, but it happened accidentally?”

            You misunderstand my use of the word ‘accidentally.’ I don’t mean it happened by chance and God did not know it would happen. I mean: God did not intend that rejecting Him occur as a result of giving people the capacity to love Him. That this capacity could be used to reject Him was ‘accidental’ to His purposes. What He did aimed at our good, and that capacity to love Him which the damned have remains good for them even when they misuse it, and the damned themselves are the ‘first in order of explanation’ as to why they misuse that capacity.

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          • kenanada says:

            Father Rooney says, “Since I think God is not only power, but also love, I don’t think He has to exercise every power He can. So, when I said He loves them, I think that’s intuitively part of why God does not change their wills – because it is good for them to be capable of making their own choices. And a world of creatures capable of making their own choices, I think, is what He aimed to do when He created human beings and what He achieved. While you might not like God’s desire to have made free persons who were capable of rejecting His love, it seems to me that a loving God could have desired this (and did, I think).”

            So the highest goal, it seems for your God is to create free persons capable of making their own choices. He could have used His power differently or more fully, but He decided that in love He would give man the power to choose to reject Goodness Itself and exist in eternal misery. This seems to be encompassed in your definition of love. Love doesn’t mean desiring what is best for another…love means giving others the capacity to choose their own horrific destiny. It seems to you that a loving God could have desired this. It seems to me that your God has chosen not to use His power to fully demonstrate His love.

            Here’s another, more logical take on freedom from DBH…
            “One can be perfectly free only to the extent that one perfectly knows God. And if…as a rational being one perfectly knows God…then one’s freedom can only have one end.”

            Maybe, a God exists who had a better plan than your God.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            “So the highest goal, it seems for your God is to create free persons capable of making their own choices. He could have used His power differently or more fully, but He decided that in love He would give man the power to choose to reject Goodness Itself and exist in eternal misery. This seems to be encompassed in your definition of love. Love doesn’t mean desiring what is best for another…love means giving others the capacity to choose their own horrific destiny. It seems to you that a loving God could have desired this. It seems to me that your God has chosen not to use His power to fully demonstrate His love.”

            If the nature of love as ‘desiring what is best for another’ means that God must always ACTUALLY ACHIEVE what is the ‘best’ for another, then God could not create a created person distinct from His own nature, as I argued above. Being divine is certainly the best state of anything, absolutely speaking. And there are Persons that are divine. So, if love demands doing what is best for another, then God could not create persons that were not the divine Persons.

            [I think this is the natural outcome of such a view of love, and I think DBH and Bulgakov subscribe to it.]

            If the nature of love as ‘desiring what is best for another’ means that God always makes possible and provides what is necessary for another to achieve their best state, then it is true that God loves the damned, as He loves all rational persons, in this way. He made possible and provided all that was necessary for everyone to be in eternal union with Him. He just did not ensure that it occur. As I don’t think of freedom as merely the capacity to sin, but as a positive good oriented toward union with God, then I do think God intended our freedom under grace for us to find union with Him and not for our ruin. The fact that we can use it to our ruin is due to the fact we are not by nature divine – we are creatures. If God wants to unite Himself in love with free creatures, then it is necessarily the case that some might reject Him. So, as I noted, it is not that God is aiming to demonstrate His power or something else – He desired to allow us to have this capacity so that we could find free union with Him, and so He desired us to have this capacity for our own good. If it were impossible for us to have union with Him except by such a capacity, and this seems to be the case since otherwise God would have to create divine Persons who share one will with Him rather than persons with distinct wills, then God has good reasons to allow those possibilities – because what He aims to do for us is good.

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          • stmichael71 says:

            [Sorry, I can modify this to be clearer:

            “If the nature of love as ‘desiring what is best for another’ means that God cannot desire what is best for another unless that person IS in their best possible state, then…”

            “If the nature of love as ‘desiring what is best for another’ means that God always does what is best FOR another to be in their best possible state, then…”

            Here’s another reason it is false that God cannot desire what is best for us unless we are in our best possible state: God loved us while we were still sinners. He does not merely love what we could become, but what we are.

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  10. Joe says:

    Brilliant piece, by the way, Fr Kimel. I suppose God’s absolute & unconditional love is just too taboo.

    Liked by 1 person

    • stmichael71 says:

      If God cannot love us, cannot even cause us to exist, unless He ensures that we love Him, that picture of God’s love seems to be pretty conditional.

      Like

  11. Robert F says:

    As I remember from a previous post, Dr Stump, using Dante’s Inferno as her guide, posits that the occupants of Hell are capable of having actual conversations, that is, the damned are capable of dong something in Hell besides suffering. In other words, her idea of the state of postmortem punishment is not Hell; and her defense of infernalism must be similarly deficient. A postmortem state in which conversations, or coffee breaks, are possible is not Hell.

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    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Staniloae is a better guide on what hell must mean. As he sees it, part of the suffering is hell is the absence of interpersonal communication and relationship. The damned are trapped in their narcissistic subjectivity.

      Like

      • Robert F says:

        Yes. I would think that, if damnation were possible, the damned would not even be able to form words, since the abilities needed for language are themselves a good and so could not exist in Hell. I suppose a god could keep the good capacity for language active in Hell solely for the purpose of torturing the damned, but such a god is indistinguishable from a demon, and so would be unable to maintain such a state eternally/everlastingly, since such a being itself would have finite limitations. The idea of some being, divine or otherwise, being able to prolong the necessary goods to maintain a state of damnation (everlasting and eternal), really, is not rational but gibberish. Infernalism is gibberish.

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      • Robert F says:

        Even the idea of the maintenance of a sense of self in such a postmortem state forever, since the existence of a true self (which I think is inextricably dependent on language) is in and of itself a good, is gibberish. For that matter, even the idea that the ability to feel, which is a good, could be maintained forever for the purposes of everlasting torture is gibberish.

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        • stmichael71 says:

          Hell is not the absence of all good. As you note, that would be metaphysically impossible. Hell is the state of willed or intentional separation from God, not separation from God or the Good in every respect. That is, hell is simply the state of desiring something that is not God as your final end and being in this state forever.

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          • Robert F says:

            Fr Rooney: Can you explain why God maintains whatever goods he does in Hell, I mean, aside from those goods making it possible for the damned to suffer without end? What good purpose would it serve? Do you consider enabling endless suffering of the damned a good purpose?

            Like

        • Joe says:

          Robert F: “For that matter, even the idea that the ability to feel, which is a good, could be maintained forever for the purposes of everlasting torture is gibberish.”

          Right, what is the purpose of intentionally sustaining the being of “the damned”?

          It would seem that God extends certain goods expressly for the purpose sustaining them in their experience. For if no other outcome is possible and no other state of being is open to them, then there can be no other purpose for which they are sustained.

          Therefore, God sustains them in their being for the purpose of these beings experiencing misery and experiencing it without end. That degree of hateful malevolence is truly unfathomable.

          Liked by 1 person

          • stmichael71 says:

            Both comments seem to assume that the only purpose for God continuing to sustain the damned in existence, or doing anything else for them, is to cause them pain and suffering. But this is false. We can simply deny that what God does is aimed to cause them to suffer, and hold that it is instead aimed to do exactly the opposite.

            So, in short, God maintains the damned in existence because He loves them. He wishes to and achieves various goods for them, even though the damned do not accept or delight in what God gives them. But that does not make God’s gifts any less good.

            [This is the sense of those explanations of the ‘river of fire’ that God makes His love present to the damned. As with the ‘fire’ of purgatory, there is no reason that what God does is not intrinsically suited to bring them to a state of joyful peace. That this has the opposite effect in the damned is due only to their free persistence in rejection of grace.]

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          • Joe says:

            “He wishes to and achieves various goods for them, even though the damned do not accept or delight in what God gives them. But that does not make God’s gifts any less good.”

            Pray tell, what exactly are these goods that they experience in hell?

            And just how good this is would be revealed by this question:

            Would a person in this state of being not wish that it end or wish to escape from it? In other words, were they given the choice to either end their existence or persist in their state of being, they would choose the latter?

            Like

          • Joe says:

            “That this has the opposite effect in the damned is due only to their free persistence in rejection of grace.”

            For clarification, as you believe that hell is eternal, this would mean that “the damned” are, as individuals, irrevocably fixed in their state, no?

            Yet, you speak about their “free persistence in rejection of grace.” So, in hell it nonetheless exists as a possibility that they might cease their rejection and convert? If not, how is it that one can be “freely persisting in rejection” when, in this state, no other possibility or alternative exists for them?

            Like

    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      My previous article on Dr Stump and Dante:

      The Infernal Quarantine of Love

      Like

  12. Robert Deinhammer, S.J. says:

    In the whole discussion, one decisive aspect is hardly taken into account: One cannot knowingly reject the grace of God. One can recognize it as true only by faith, but then one has already accepted it.

    That God loves us and we have fellowship with him (“grace”) can only be recognized in faith, namely by accepting the Christian message coming from Jesus and trusting in it.

    Outside of faith, one can only recognize that the Christian message claims to be God’s self-communication in a human word (“Word of God”), but one cannot recognize its truth.

    Therefore, outside of faith, one can reject the Christian message (becoming arbitrary), but precisely not in full awareness that it is indeed communicating God’s grace. This explains why Jesus prayed on the cross, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

    Unbelief ultimately means having false gods. With death at the latest, everything that man has falsely idolized is knocked out of his hands. In death, God separates all human beings from false gods.

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    • stmichael71 says:

      I see no reason to believe we cannot reject God’s grace. What we need to do to reject grace is simply to love something other than God, making it the ‘end’ at which we tend, putting that something in the place of God as an idol. We do not need to have God’s own knowledge of Himself to love something other than God in a way that we make the latter choice knowingly, responsibly, and such that we alone were the ultimate source of that choice.

      Your assumptions about what is required to reject grace are simply mistaken. We can do the above while knowing nothing about Christianity. The moral law, which we can know apart from the Gospel, was ‘written’ by God. To act contrary to that is consequently to sin against God and, thus, by means of ordinary moral evil we can create our idols without even any knowledge that God exists.

      “One can recognize it as true only by faith, but then one has already accepted it.”

      This gets at what DB Hart and others seem to think about why moral evil is fundamentally impossible. But they argue this applies to all moral decisions and not just matters of faith, since they think recognizing something as good for me (‘knowing’ it is good) seems incompatible with not actually willing that good.

      Here’s a resolution to the philosophical puzzle: these all fail to make a distinction between acting on knowledge I have (that is, actively judging X is good for me, functioning like a premise in a practical syllogism), and knowing something dispositionally. Sins requires acting knowingly against the good one knows, but this knowledge is naturally a dispositional knowledge (i.e., you know how to speak Chinese even when not actually speaking Chinese). You are NOT ‘acting upon’ what you know in the dispositional sense when you act contrary to it, but that does not show you lack the dispositional knowledge. If I were to mispronounce a Chinese word intentionally, as a joke, that does not entail that I don’t know how to speak Chinese.

      The moral case is similar. When you eat that extra donut, it’s not because you don’t know it is not good for you or that you ought not to eat it. You of course know those things. You just fail to act upon the knowledge. In moral cases, however, acting contrary to what one knows they ought to do is just to do moral evil. So too a former Christian who rejects Christianity can be culpable to the extent to which they know that they ought not to do this. While it is impossible to simultaneously judge Christianity is true and that it is false, that is not what is required. What one needs to do is start in a position where one dispositionally knows that Christianity is or could be true, slowly stop caring to think about reasons why Christianity is or could be true, and instead begin to focus on what you think are the reasons to reject it (doubts). Then, one eventually convinces one’s self that these other reasons outweigh or give you better reason not to be Christian any longer, until you arrive at a judgment to the contrary and eventually leave. What makes this morally culpable is that one is acting contrary to what they knew to be true – it is a kind of process by which we engage in self-deception.

      To give a case: knowingly rejecting the teaching of the Church’s pastors and reinterpreting Scripture to fit one’s preconceptions about the non-existence of hell would be morally evil insofar as one dispositionally knows that one ought to obey both the Church’s pastors and what God says in Scripture according to the sense that God intended, and that to reinterpret Scripture according to one’s preconceptions is to falsify what God intended, but nevertheless finds excuses to do otherwise, given perhaps that one’s preconceptions have strong emotional pull and one is not inclined to trust God when there appears to be some apparent tension between beliefs in God’s love or goodness and those evils that He allows.

      I suggest then that the argument therefore relies upon a failure to make a distinction about the nature of knowledge as dispositional versus knowledge one acts upon.

      Like

      • Robert Deinhammer, S.J. says:

        So you would think that fellowship with God can already be recognized by natural reason?

        In reality it is true: One can recognize fellowship with God at all only in faith in the Christian message as the word of God, but then has already accepted it.

        God is also not an object of human striving or effecting. There may be anonymous faith, but this is also only possible as grace.

        To believe in Jesus as the Son of God means, on the basis of His Word, to know oneself (and the whole world) taken up into the eternal love between Father and Son, which is the Holy Spirit, and therefore no longer to have to live under the power of fear for oneself.

        Perhaps this will help you: http://peter-knauer.de/TheologyandSp3.pdf

        Like

        • stmichael71 says:

          “So you would think that fellowship with God can already be recognized by natural reason?”

          No. You seem to ignore most of what I wrote, which dealt with how you need to know nothing about God to sin against Him. The rest of what you wrote does not engage with that fact either.

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          • Robert Deinhammer, S.J. says:

            “You need to know nothing about God to sin against Him.”

            The primary sin against God is unbelief, i.e. not trusting in his unconditional love. But this love can only be recognized by faith in the Christian message.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            A kind of sin against God is unbelief. There are lots of other sins against God that neither are no require committing the sin of unbelief.

            Like

  13. Counter-Rebel says:

    I hate the free will defense of hell. I don’t think ultimate causal responsibility translates to full moral responsibility. Free choices are spontaneous and unpredictable. The cause is intrinsically the same given either effect, which means there is nothing it can do, prior to the choice, to ensure the right choice will occur. It’s like a coin toss. The agent didn’t choose to have an unpredictable control. (Some will say that I’m just pointing out that indeterministic choices are, well, indeterministic. That’s true, but I think unpredictability is what renders one non-ultimately responsible.) It’s unconscionable that God would allow hell because of an indeterministic event.

    That said, I think we do have libertarian free will and that it’s compatible with hard universalism. The ability to choose between good and evil is rooted in epistemic distance from God. One can choose God immediately and lose the ability to sin. Alternatively, one can choose sin, learn the painful effects, and lose the ability to sin. Either way, one freely acquires experiential knowledge that serves as a determinans making it impossible to sin. W. Matthews Grant points out that libertarian free will is compatible with *some* choices being determined:

    “Libertarians disagree about precisely where indeterminism is required in the process that produces a free act. Some hold that every free act must be undetermined, that is, lacking a factor that is both prior to and logically sufficient for the act. Others hold that a given free act could be determined, provided that the *determinans* is something for which the agent is responsible in virtue of performing some prior undetermined act that resulted in the *determinans.* We can think of these as ‘strict’ and ‘broad’ accounts of what it is for an act to be free in the libertarian sense.” -“Divine Universal Causality and Libertarian Freedom”

    The hard universalist could say that free will requires the metaphysical possibility to reject God and/or God’s grace, but not forever. Eventually the sinner hits “the extreme limit of evil” and “by necessity turns its movement towards the good” (Gregory of Nyssa, On the Human Image of God, XXI). The hard universalist could say that memory of past misfortune would make the sinner more prudent.

    Like

    • Counter-Rebel says:

      Edit: It’s unconscionable, for the hard universalist, that God would allow…

      Like

    • stmichael71 says:

      “Free choices are spontaneous and unpredictable. The cause is intrinsically the same given either effect, which means there is nothing it can do, prior to the choice, to ensure the right choice will occur. It’s like a coin toss. The agent didn’t choose to have an unpredictable control.”

      This is a simple logical mistake.

      “I have no control today over what I will do tomorrow.”
      “I have no control today over what I did yesterday.”

      Both are true. Neither of these entail that, “I had no control yesterday over what I did yesterday,” or “I will have no control tomorrow over what I will do tomorrow.” So, it is compatible with all these claims to affirm that “I control today over what I do today.”

      In other words, you’ve just made a simple logical fallacy of ignoring the temporal context of the propositions. It does not follow that, because a free choice is ‘unpredictable’ or that ‘there is nothing [you] can do, prior to the choice, to ensure the right choice will occur,” that therefore “it’s like a coin toss.” It just means that you are in control of what you choose to do when you choose to do it, rather than before you make the choice. But that’s to be in control of the choice, not for it to be a coin toss that’s out of your control.

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      • stmichael71 says:

        [Sorry, there are some typos: “I control today what I do today.” “it’s a simple logical fallacy…” and so forth.]

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      • Counter-Rebel says:

        I mean causally prior, not temporally. Everything about the agent-as-cause is the same regardless of which effect arises.

        I don’t deny the agent has control/causality. I deny that this control renders him fully morally responsible, since the control is unpredictable. He can’t set up the control so as to guarantee the right choice will occur. So it is like a coin toss in that it’s unpredictable–either outcome could obtain holding all else equal.

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        • stmichael71 says:

          “I mean causally prior, not temporally. Everything about the agent-as-cause is the same regardless of which effect arises.”

          Then it seems your metaphysics is erroneous. It is not true that everything about the agent-as-cause is the same regardless of which effect arises. At the moment one makes a decision, that you are making a choice is a fact about the agent, and the agent is really distinct in each moment. At the moment you choose A, you are ‘the agent-choosing-A.’ At the moment you choose B, you are ‘the agent-choosing-B.’ It is not true that these states are identical or that the agent is the same in both states. The agent is essentially the same KIND OF THING (a human agent) at both moments, but is not in all respects identical.

          Like

          • Counter-Rebel says:

            Granted. I should’ve said everything about the cause is intrinsically the same on indeterministic causation. That the cause gains the property of causing A (or B) is underwritten by something extrinsic–it’s an extrinsic predication. Given that clarification, libertarian free will is akin to a coin toss.

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          • stmichael71 says:

            “That the cause gains the property of causing A (or B) is underwritten by something extrinsic–it’s an extrinsic predication.”

            No, it isn’t. That’s true of God, but not of us.

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          • Counter-Rebel says:

            Yes, it is. Indeterminism, by definition, requires that given the cause, any effect could arise with no cross-world difference in the cause. The cause and effect may both be located in the agent, but the effect is still posterior to the cause. On indeterminism the effect *must be* extrinsic. If it were intrinsic to the cause that it would cause A, then A would follow predictably/inevitably. Only given the choice does the agent gain the property of making that particular choice, which is what it means for it to be extrinsically predicated of it.

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          • stmichael71 says:

            “Indeterminism, by definition, requires that given the cause, any effect could arise with no cross-world difference in the cause.”

            That’s not what indeterminism requires. An indeterministic choice between A and B requires that, prior to the choice being made, it is possible for someone to choose A or B and no state of the agent makes it that A or B is necessary. It does not require that, as the choice occurs, that the agent is in no way different in worlds where they choose A or B. Here’s the state of the agent that necessarily involves the choice and cannot differentiate: the state of choosing A. This is unproblematic for indeterminism as it is not prior to the choice itself, but a constituent of it. That was why WM Grant makes his claims about God’s causality, because even if th agent is different when they choose, as long as God’s causal act is a constiuent of what the agent does, it’s not unacceptably prior and necessitating.

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          • Counter-Rebel says:

            “That’s not what indeterminism requires.”

            If we’re talking about indeterministic causation, which libertarian free will exemplifies, then it requires such by definition.

            “that the agent is in no way different in worlds where they choose A or B.”

            Something has to cause the effect (the choice). And this will be intrinsically the same across worlds.

            “Here’s the state of the agent that necessarily involves the choice and cannot differentiate: the state of choosing A. ”

            I’m referring to the cause (of the choice) in itself, not the causal act or the choice.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            Yes, you are wrong. There is nothing about indeterminism that requires a person does not change when they make a choice.

            Very silly, in fact, as it’s pretty obvious people change as a result of their choices – dont you think so?

            Like

          • Counter-Rebel says:

            “Yes, you are wrong.” No, I am right.

            Before this turns into a pointless loop, I will clarify: there is a cause (the agent-as-cause), an effect (the choice), and an agent where the former two take place, where there is a state of choosing A (or B). The causal act “agent-as-cause causes choice-A” is the uncaused free act, the state of causing A. The choice-A is the caused (event of the) free choice, which is an element of the state. As W.M. Grant points out, properly speaking, the uncaused free act is a relation and not an event, though it contains an event.

            I’m not saying the agent-as-a-whole (where the cause and effect are located) is the same across worlds. That would be an error and it would be uncharitable and condescending to attribute such a claim to me. I’m saying the cause–the agent-cause–is intrinsically the same across worlds. And this is true by definition, given indeterminism. It can only be intrinsic or extrinsic to the agent-cause that it causes A. If it were intrinsic, then A would be determined. Therefore, it must be an extrinsic predication. That it would still be intrinsic to the agent-as-a-whole is irrelevant as it wouldn’t contravene my original point: the cause/controller (of the choice) is inherently unpredictable, like a coin toss. It’s just the mysterious nature of libertarian freedom. And on my view, it is ridiculous to think we deserve hell for causing an act of sin when it wasn’t predictable, and so there was no intrinsic guaranteeing motion at reach…nothing the cause could do, prior to the choice, to ensure the right one would win.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            Again, you seem to be transposing questions about God’s way of causing things (which is what WM Grant was discussing) with the way human free will makes choices. It is simply untrue that it is any requirement of indeterminism that the agent remains identical whether it chooses or not, such that choice is an ‘extrinsic prediction.’ It just isn’t. I understand your position and I straightforwardly deny that the claim is true. If you think it is so required, you can give me an argument. Otherwise, it is on this basis I deny your conclusion that an act of sin is not properly attributable to the agent (as being ‘in’ the agent, so that a change in the agent is what constitutes the choice), but only attributable in a way that resembles a chancy event like a coin toss (whose result is not intrinsically related to the agent’s state).

            Like

          • Counter-Rebel says:

            “It is simply untrue that it is any requirement of indeterminism that the agent remains identical whether it chooses or not, such that choice is an ‘extrinsic prediction.’”

            You didn’t read my response. I said, “I’m not saying the agent-as-a-whole (where the cause and effect are located) is the same across worlds.” I’m referring to the cause of the choice, the agent-cause. On indeterministic causation, it has to be the case that the cause, whatever it is, is cross-world intrinsically identical.

            The conclusion is that an agent cannot be fully culpable for its choices, not that the agent is not a cause of the choice. The agent did not consent to having an unpredictable form of control.

            “such that choice is an ‘extrinsic prediction.’ It just isn’t.” Predication.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            “I’m referring to the cause of the choice, the agent-cause. On indeterministic causation, it has to be the case that the cause, whatever it is, is cross-world intrinsically identical.”

            And that is exactly what I am denying as required for indeterministic, free choice.

            “Predication.” – Yes, it was a typo.

            Again, to emphasize, I am straightforwardly denying YOUR position – that is, exactly what you are saying – that a choice is attributed to an agent via extrinsic predication, and that this is required for indeterministic, free choice.

            Like

          • Counter-Rebel says:

            Either choices are caused or uncaused. If they are uncaused they’d be random. So they are caused by something, X. If they are caused, the effect is either an intrinsic predication or an extrinsic predication.

            If the former, then something intrinsic to X makes it true that it causes the specific choice. This entails determinism. Therefore, to avoid determinism, it must be the case that X is not really related to its effect…that it is not intrinsic to X that choice A (or B) obtains. What makes it true that X causes A is underwritten not by X, then, but by A. This is just what it means to be an extrinsic predication. W.M. Grant wrote “Must a cause be really related to its effect? The analogy between divine and created freedom.” Anytime there’s indeterminism, the cause is not really related to the effect, that is to say, there is nothing about the cause in itself in virtue of which one effect obtains rather than another.

            Like

          • Counter-Rebel says:

            *”Must a Cause Be Really Related to Its Effect? The Analogy between Divine and Libertarian Agent Causality” W Matthews Grant

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            Notice the qualifier: “there is a possible world W*, the same in all respects up to the moment at which S performs A…” NOT: “same in all respects AT the moment at which S performs A or where S does not perform A.”

            Further, he says nothing about whether the agent undergoes an intrinsic change in virtue of performing A. What he says is that nothing about the agent prior to performing A necessarily entails that the agent perform A. That does not entail that agents do not undergo an intrinsic change in virtue of performing A. Grant admits clearly in his book that human agents are not like God, in that our kinds of causality *do* involve intrinsic changes.

            But, let us assume that WM Grant has spoken poorly somewhere and made a mistake or been ambiguous in what he means by a libertarian agent being related to its effects. He certainly denies your conclusion, as he does not think that free choices are like coin flips or at random, with no control being exercised over their choices by the agent. He thinks that those actions are related to the agent in a basic and fundamental way that need not involve any prior factor that necessitates their performance FOR THEM TO HAVE A SUFFICIENT CAUSAL EXPLANATION.

            That is, of course, what he’s arguing here. And certainly I agree with Grant that God does not have intrinsic states in virtue of which He causes anything. So, assume that God has libertarian free will. I agree that His choices are extrinsically predicated of His essence. I don’t see that this makes God’s actions random or like coin flips. That’s just what it is to be an intelligent agent: that you exercise control over what you do. Even if creation is not really related to God, God doesn’t just cause creation at random.

            Finally, merely citing Grant does not show that you are right on this claim as being REQUIRED for libertarian freedom; you would be merely citing one (idiosyncratic) possible account of libertarian freedom which, knowing Grant personally, I know that he too is going to say you do not correctly understand.

            Like

          • Counter-Rebel says:

            //Notice the qualifier: “there is a possible world W*, the same in all respects up to the moment at which S performs A…”// Yes.

            //NOT: “same in all respects AT the moment at which S performs A or where S does not perform A.”// I never said this. You love attacking strawmen. Obviously, the worlds are different–otherwise it would just be one world under discussion.

            //Further, he says nothing about whether the agent undergoes an intrinsic change in virtue of performing A.//

            I already made it clear that I don’t deny the agent-as-a-whole changes. What I said was that at the instant of choice, there is no cross-world intrinsic difference in whatever causes the choice.

            //What he says is that nothing about the agent prior to performing A necessarily entails that the agent perform A. That does not entail that agents do not undergo an intrinsic change in virtue of performing A.//

            See the above.

            //Grant admits clearly in his book that human agents are not like God, in that our kinds of causality *do* involve intrinsic changes.//

            See the above.

            //He certainly denies your conclusion, as he does not think that free choices are like coin flips or at random, with no control being exercised over their choices by the agent.//

            You didn’t read what I said. I never denied that agents control their choices. Strawman after strawman. Knock it off.

            “He thinks that those actions are related to the agent in a basic and fundamental way that need not involve any prior factor that necessitates their performance FOR THEM TO HAVE A SUFFICIENT CAUSAL EXPLANATION.”

            Yes, and this supports my point. In both worlds at the instant of choice, the cause X in itself does not underwrite “…causes A [or B].” It is intrinsically the same.

            “That is, of course, what he’s arguing here.
            … Even if creation is not really related to God, God doesn’t just cause creation at random.” I didn’t use the term random. I used the term unpredictable. But if by random you mean unpredictable then jt will do.

            “I know that he too is going to say you do not correctly understand.” Deny it all you want, but I do correctly understand.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            “…at the instant of choice, there is no cross-world intrinsic difference in whatever causes the choice.”

            This I simply deny as any requirement for libertarian free will. Punct.

            But, even if it applies to God (which I concede!), God’s choices are not as you say they are. That is, God does not act in the way you think is problematic. Nor do you seem to think God’s choices are that way either. Ipso facto, whatever implications you draw from the fact of free will do not follow.

            Like

          • Counter-Rebel says:

            “This I simply deny as any requirement for libertarian free will. Punct.”

            Anyone can deny anything. I explained why it would imply determinism if it were intrinsic to the cause that it causes A. You didn’t show what was wrong with what I said. You just write “deny” as if that’s some great refutation. If that’s the level you’re at, then there’s no hope of convincing you. Truth is not dependent on whether you accept it.

            I don’t have access to the paper I cited, but I found this footnote from Grant: “25 … Of course, the volition or intention caused by a creaturely agent-cause is something intrinsic to that agent, whereas the effects caused by God on the extrinsic model are not intrinsic to God. Nevertheless, *in both cases* you have an agent bringing about
            an effect, but not in virtue of some intrinsic property of the agent that would differ were the agent not causing that effect.” [“Can a Libertarian Hold that our Free Acts Caused by God?”, emphasis mine]

            There’s nothing problematic with free will. Even non-universalists would agree that even if one is the ultimate cause of a choice, there are factors that can reduce their culpability. So full causal responsibility dukes not translate to full moral responsibility. I hold that unpredictability is a factor that makes full moral responsibility impossible.

            Like

          • Counter-Rebel says:

            *does not translate

            Like

  14. Iainlovejoy says:

    The utter moral stupidlty of Stump’s position is what aggravates me. She does a big long spiel about how a “Jerome” who becomes a Nazi is not a disappointment / sadness to “Paula” who loves him, because Jerome has rejected Paula and, as he has become, Paula could not find joy in his company because he is a cold hearted Nazi etc. so her love for Jerome can somehow be satisfied by purported contentless “compassion” from afar, just offering some unidentified “comfort” (Stump does not say how or what) to the person who has rejected her love.
    Non-moral monsters, on the other hand, are sad if their friend, or child, or lover, has descended into evil and misery. They don’t think it’s fine because “well that’s how they are now” and write them off as a bad job. That is not even human, let alone divine.
    Stump quotes with approval C S Lewis’ paeon to selfishness, the devil’s reasoning that we ought not to care about the suffering of those who would be our enemies because if we do, their rejection of us is a “blackmail” that spoils our own happiness. The argument is that we should stop caring so much, or at all, about our neighbour’s misery because it detracts from our own happiness in our own circumstances.
    The argument about God’s “antecedent” and “consequent” will is, bluntly, gibberish. Stump produces this truly bizarre sentence: “in his consequent will, God wills that some human beings are not united with him because they reject him”: what does this even mean? If the outcome is in accordance with God’s will, does God this mean that it was God’s will that they rejected Him, or is Stump saying that God, having created us, is then supremely indifferent as to whether we reject Him or not? Stump seems to be removing any content from the word “will” as it pertains to God: God, in Stump’s view, seems to have no opinions or desires or “will” as to whether anyone is saved or not. God avoids his “will” being frustrated by carefully not having any will at all.

    Like

    • stmichael71 says:

      It simply isn’t Stump’s account of what a loving friend/parent/lover ought to do, or of what God does for the damned, that they “think it’s fine because ‘well that’s how they are now’ and write them off as a bad job.” What she is saying is that one can simultaneously judge that X is NOT fine, be concerned about them, do what good you can for them (in their bad state), and nevertheless not allow their bad state to undermine your own peace of mind.

      I’d note that, as CS Lewis depicts in The Great Divorce, it is usually a component of bad and abusive relationships that the abuser engages in emotional blackmail with their victim. “Don’t you care about me? How can you leave me, if you really love me?” Well, the fact is – in reality – that this is a lie, as Stump points out. Sometimes what is truly loving is to get the civil divorce and love the person from afar, but not to allow that person to hold you as emotional ransom.

      Like

      • Iainlovejoy says:

        Not to care that someone suffers is not to love them – if you think you can love someone and not be distressed at their suffering and seek to aid them, or lament that you cannot, and can regard their suffering with “peace of mind” then you do not know what the word “love” means, and have never experienced it, and nothing more can be said.

        Like

      • Wes says:

        Wouldn’t loving someone *as yourself*, as the gospel entreats us, involve being such that the well-being of your loved one is caught up in your own well-being, becomes part of your well-being, and that therefore their bad state should undermine your peace of mind to the same extent that your own bad state should?

        Like

        • stmichael71 says:

          Wes,

          Jesus does not tell us to ensure that our well-being is caught up in our enemies’ well-being, such that, if they are not doing well, we too should not be doing well. Jesus tells us to love our enemies and desire their well-being. I take it that this is a significant difference – one can love your enemy’s well-being (as God does) without allowing them to undermine your own peace of mind. We know that these are distinct, too, because Jesus tells us that anyone who does not hate his mother, sister, brothers, father, etc., on account of Christ cannot be His disciple. That is, I take it that you should desire the well-being of your parents and siblings, but the desire for their well-being does not require that you destroy your own well-being (your relationship with God, in this case) for their sake.

          I take it that this is clearly illustrated in that we are not obligated to continue to cohabitate with abusive spouses, for example, or submit to emotional abuse, as a result of our obligations to Christian forgiveness.

          That too is my response to Ian: “Not to care that someone suffers is not to love them….” You can care about someone’s bad moral state without being distraught and losing your own relationship with God in the process (as God cares for and loves us, more than any of us could possible care for each other, despite being metaphysically unable to suffer – if you agree God cares for us, then suffering is no necessary part of caring). In fact, I think it follows from Jesus’ command that we should not allow others to distract us from love of Him. So, our love motivates us to desire the good of others who are morally evil, and to do what we can to aid them, but it does not require doing harm to ourselves.

          Like

          • Robert F says:

            I do agree with you in the matter of what it means to love someone who is abusive. In an abusive relationship, the most loving thing the abused can do for the abuser is, if at all possible, to put distance and protection between themself and the abuser, that is, to protect themself rather than let the abuser continue in the patterns of abuse. Acknowledging that it’s often beyond the abused person’s power to protect themself or remove themself from the situation, whenever it is possible for them to do so that is precisely the most loving and Christian thing they can do for everyone involved. But I don’t really see how any of this relates to the matter of damnation and everlasting Hell, rather, it concerns the nature of evil in existence on this side of the horizon beyond which is the life to come.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            “Acknowledging that it’s often beyond the abused person’s power to protect themself or remove themself from the situation, whenever it is possible for them to do so that is precisely the most loving and Christian thing they can do for everyone involved. But I don’t really see how any of this relates to the matter of damnation and everlasting Hell, rather, it concerns the nature of evil in existence on this side of the horizon beyond which is the life to come.”

            Why doesn’t it undermine the idea that truly loving another person requires exposing yourself to (psychological) harm on their account, such as distress? Because, as I recall, this was essentially the claim: truly to love another person requires us being distressed and unable to be happy as long as that other person is not happy; ergo, someone who truly loves someone in hell would be distressed and unable to be happy as long as that person is in hell. But, if truly loving another person does not require exposing yourself to harm in this life, why think it does ‘on the other side of the horizon beyond’?

            Like

          • Wes says:

            “So, our love motivates us to desire the good of others who are morally evil, and to do what we can to aid them, but it does not require doing harm to ourselves.”

            Do you mean love doesn’t require doing harm to ourselves, like sacrificing our life for another? But didn’t Jesus say that was the greatest form of love? Now, I wouldn’t say “doing harm to ourselves,” but “submitting ourselves to the possibility of harm.” We should seek to remove ourselves from those who are actively trying to harm us, of course, but that seems like something entirely different.

            I think the sacrifice of love involves this possibility of suffering, and that love is in this sense “dangerous” because it makes us vulnerable, because in love we give ourselves to others. Agape is other-focused, and it was precisely from agape that Jesus descended from heaven and gave all that he could give for the good of the world. Are we to believe love would involve that sort of sacrifice, but not the sacrifice that binds up someone else’s good with one’s own? Or isn’t that exactly the reason for the Incarnation? I don’t know what it means to love someone *as myself* if their harm doesn’t negatively affect my well-being in some sense; otherwise it just seems like the “as yourself” has been minimized or explained away.

            Like

          • David says:

            But love is a sacrifice, and almost always exposes yourself to at least the risk of great harm. I’m truly shocked that you’d entertain denying that.

            With respect to how we deal with abusers, I agree that sometimes – as you say – the most loving thing to do for the abuser to leave them.

            But that’s because it truly is for the abuser’s own good – i.e. they need a wake up call, they need to understand the damage they’ve done and how it’s driven loved ones away.

            But it’s always done with the hope that this will *help* the abuser recognise the pattern of abuse and find a way to break that cycle.

            Paul recognises that sometimes we might need to do this when he states “you are to hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord”.

            But we have to focus on the last bit. We sometimes leave people alone – hand them over to Satan – so that “they may be saved in the day of the Lord”.

            NOT “so they may suffer forever while we forget about them in heaven”.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            Wes:

            “Do you mean love doesn’t require doing harm to ourselves, like sacrificing our life for another? But didn’t Jesus say that was the greatest form of love? Now, I wouldn’t say ‘doing harm to ourselves,’ but ‘submitting ourselves to the possibility of harm.’ We should seek to remove ourselves from those who are actively trying to harm us, of course, but that seems like something entirely different.”

            If this were true that we have an obligation to submit ourselves to the possibility of harm, it seems that St. Paul and Christ both violated this moral imperative when they fled martyrdom – St. Paul being lowered out of the city, and Christ passing through the midst of the crowd. If all you mean is that one needs to have the desire to be *willing* to be harmed for the good of another, then one can have this desire without actually being harmed. Maybe, for instance, Christ and St. Paul did not think it was necessary for the good of the other that they be harmed in those instances that they fled. But, then, in the same way, we can respond that the blessed and God do not think that being harmed would be necessary for the good of the those in hell either – even though they were willing to be so harmed (Christ actually dying for sinners). So, we can just conclude that Christ suffering on the Cross for eternity is not necessary for the good of those in hell. Christ was willing to suffer for them, and He did so, but suffering further would be needless. He can love them without submitting to further harm for their sake.

            David:

            “…love is a sacrifice, and almost always exposes yourself to at least the risk of great harm. I’m truly shocked that you’d entertain denying that.”

            I don’t. I think that loving people do expose themselves to risk of great harm. What I deny is that, if you are not actually being harmed by the bad state of another, that you therefore do not love (or have ceased to love) the person who is in that bad state.

            “I agree that sometimes… the most loving thing to do for the abuser to leave them. But that’s because it truly is for the abuser’s own good… we have to focus on the last bit. We sometimes leave people alone – hand them over to Satan – so that ‘they may be saved in the day of the Lord.’ NOT ‘so they may suffer forever while we forget about them in heaven.”‘

            I agree with you! I would reject, naturally, that Christ suffers for them so that He might forget about them later, just as the view that we should excommunicate anyone so as to bring about their eternal damnation. I hold (instead) that Christ suffered for all once, for the good of *all*, and then continues to love the damned even though He no longer suffers for them. One can aim at the good of another who is in a bad state – one can truly love another – without being actually harmed by the other, assuming that further suffering would not bring about further benefit to that person in the bad state. I don’t think it is necessary for God’s love of the damned that He suffer any further. For example, Christ dying again would not bring about further benefit to the damned. So, I don’t see any reason that the blessed or God could not love the damned without actually being harmed by the damned.

            Like

        • David says:

          Glad to be in agreement Father.

          I agree that we needn’t deliberately put ourselves in harms way where it stands no chance of actually helping anybody.

          However I submit that it is a fact of human nature that we cannot be perfectly happy if any suffer forever. If, for example, one claimed that I could be happy while knowing that my daughter was suffering forever (albeit with Christ in some sense still ‘with her’ and ‘loving her’) then I would reply that they simply don’t know the depth of what love is.

          (not that I regard this kind of argument as decisive – for me the moral argument is the clincher)

          Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            “If, for example, one claimed that I could be happy while knowing that my daughter was suffering forever (albeit with Christ in some sense still ‘with her’ and ‘loving her’) then I would reply that they simply don’t know the depth of what love is.”

            I do not disagree that you would not continue to love your daughter, when you were in heaven. I think this is correct. What I disagree with is that you have to be suffering about her fate, in psychological anguish, or you would not truly continue to love her.

            It seems to me, instead, that it’s just a fact about true happiness and love that we have to prefer God’s kingdom to everything else. Christ is pretty explicit: “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.” In Luke, the language is sharper. He wouldn’t have said that if He did not call us to a higher love than mere natural affection.

            Yet I’m not claiming that I can imagine what it would be like to have a loved one in hell and to be happy. But I would claim that we do know that it is possible for someone to love bad people without continuing to suffer for them: Christ loves us intensely even when we are morally evil and even when we suffer, yet He only suffered once and thereafter no longer. So, since it is a matter of faith that Christ can love us even while we are evil and not be always suffering, I think we have very good reason to believe it is possible for each of us – through God’s grace – to come to have Christ’s attitude toward all our loved ones. The Father and the Spirit love us all – and love your daughter *more than you ever could* – and suffer at no time.

            Like

          • David says:

            Thanks Father. I understand your position but I don’t agree with it.

            I think it’s intrinsically impossible for a person to be happy while those they love suffer forever – just as, for example, it would be impossible for a person to be happy while being tortured with flames forever with no hope of the experience ending.

            Claiming that said endless-torture-victims were supposedly enjoying the ‘beatific’ vision simultaneously would not mitigate this suffering entirely – or rather, it is simply not possible to have perfect happiness while being tormented with flames, they are not compossible states.

            Likewise I contend that one cannot have perfect happiness while knowing one’s daughter is suffering forever.

            The language in Luke is not relevant – yes, we must love God above all, but that does not mean that our eternal happiness is compossible with all possible states of the ‘all’. We should love God more than we love not-being-tortured, but that doesn’t mean we can be perfectly happy while being tortured.

            Or as another example, perhaps I love my daughter even more than I love my parents. But if it turned out my parents suffered forever, and I was very unhappy about this, it would not mean that I had ceased to love my daughter more than my parents – it would just be that one is necessarily committed to unhappiness if one’s parents suffer forever (regardless of their ‘greater loves’)

            Likewise, I might love God ‘more’ than my daughter, but that would not invalidate the claim that I could not enjoy perfect happiness without my daughter.

            Indeed, when we’re perfected, we’ll love everybody at least as much as we love our daughters – which means I could not enjoy perfect happiness without you either Father Rooney! But not to worry, I’m sure we’ll get there together. Come along, I’ll race you.

            Like

  15. Joe says:

    I must admit, I share Fr Kimel’s skepticism regarding Fr Rooney’s claims of being a hopeful universalism. Clearly, he finds such an outcome unjust and supremely distasteful. Why would one hope for something that one finds so despicable?

    It is more than odd that someone would vehemently argue against a position for which they genuinely hold hope. This has gone beyond playing the devil’s advocate. For all of his desperate and varied attempts to “disprove” universalism, I have yet to see any defense of the merits of even a hopeful version of such a conviction. This is rather odd for someone claiming to hold a steadfast hope that all are saved.

    Like

    • Joe says:

      *Universalist*

      Like

    • stmichael71 says:

      You seem to have simply misunderstood my arguments. I do not argue that the outcome of God saving all is ‘unjust and supremely distasteful.’ I am happy to admit it would be just and good if God did that. I am arguing against the (universalist) view that God would not be just and good if He did not ensure that outcome.

      Like

      • stmichael71 says:

        I should also note, to clarify, that I’m not a ‘hopeful universalist.’ I am agnostic on whether God will save all, even though I hope and pray He does. What I have argued is that one does not run into the problems I pose if one hopes and believes that all will be saved, if one also admits that God would be just and good even if He did not (this is ‘contingent’ or ‘soft’ universalism).

        Like

        • Joe says:

          “I am agnostic on whether God will save all, even though I hope and pray He does.”

          But, according to your view, it is not up to him…so what are you hoping and praying that he does to save all?

          With every statement you make, you try and have it both ways.

          Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            “Since the best outcome is possible and—as you are happy to admit—does not contravene justice or goodness, there is no good reason why it should be done.”

            Your claim is crucially ambiguous. Yes, it would be better if everyone freely converted in a world where God set it up such that He would not necessarily and unilaterally save everyone. This is what I pray for. But it isn’t true that a world where God set it up that He ensures all are saved is a better world than ours, and I’m not praying that we live in THAT world. I’m praying God’s will be done in ours.

            Like

          • Joe says:

            “Yes, it would be better if everyone freely converted in a world where God set it up such that He would not necessarily and unilaterally save everyone.”

            You say that you hope God will save all but it is not really about God doing anything. God’s hands are tied.

            So why do say that that you hope that God will save all?

            So, let’s try this again: What exactly are you hoping and praying God do about this situation?

            Like

      • Joe says:

        “I am happy to admit it would be just and good if God did that. I am arguing against the (universalist) view that God would not be just and good if He did not ensure that outcome.”

        Then we can all agree that that it is the better outcome, otherwise why would one hope and pray for it. And you admit that this better outcome would be just and good.

        The universalist simply takes the final step and goes where you fear to tread.

        Since the best outcome is possible and—as you are happy to admit—does not contravene justice or goodness, there is no good reason why it should be done.

        Like

  16. stmichael71 says:

    “You say that you hope God will save all but it is not really about God doing anything. God’s hands are tied.”

    This is not what I said.

    Like

  17. Joe says:

    You said “I hope and pray that God saves all.”

    Then you said that, whether or not someone is saved is dependent upon whether or not they “freely convert,” which is course, God is, at best, limited in his means of bringing about.

    So, what does it mean to say that you hope that God saves all?

    Once again, it is not up to God. His will is that our will be done.

    Like

    • stmichael71 says:

      No, God converts those who convert. What I said is that I pray God converts all, according to His (contingent) plan. I do not pray to change God’s plan and ask that all will necessarily be saved. It is a difference like this: When I pray God helps and heals all those who need it, I do not pray that anyone who is sick is always healed, or pray that God never have allowed anyone to get sick in the first place.

      Like

      • Joe says:

        “ No, God converts those who convert.”

        Yes, I know that is what you meant.

        God saves those who make themselves save-able.

        Like

  18. Tom says:

    I have to bring this indented conversation back out here flush left. The column gets too narrow…

    1
    Tom: …we know God’s love for those in bad moral states is their redemption from those states.

    Rooney: How do we know this?

    Tom: I truly grieve that you don’t know it. It is known in the apprehension of God’s love as unconditional and infinite, the act that grounds and gives us our capacities and powers, a love that wills and pursues without end our highest well-being in him.

    ————-
    2
    Tom: One cannot assume from the Romans passage that since the existence of those loved by Christ manifests God’s goodness in some measure (God is loving them and their existence instantiates some measure of being loved by God), ergo the same would be true of those suffering eternally, ergo God’s permitting such torment and suffering must be compatible with God’s being Love and the Good as such.

    Rooney: Why not?

    Tom: Because the former does not logically imply the latter.

    ————-

    3
    Tom: …you too (like the universalist view you argue against) believe God ‘must’ be thought of as loving all…

    Rooney: And?

    Tom: And so the universalist’s claim that God loves necessarily (per his nature), and that this loves precludes from the scope of possible ends our foreclosing upon ourselves the possibility of union with God – these do not reduce such love to an obligation to give creatures something they are “owed.”

    ——————

    4
    Rooney: I never argued anyone should believe God is not loving.

    Tom: Never suggested you did.

    ——————

    5
    Rooney: I have argued that God can love us without us loving him, even if that persists forever. I argued that it would be bad if God cannot love us without us loving Him…

    Tom: Of course God can love us without our loving him. How else would it be true that “We love him because he first loved us” (1Jn 4.19)? The world is full of people who don’t love God and who are loved by God. If ‘God is love’ (necessarily speaking), then it would always be the case that God loves all who are in whatever state they are actually in, in all possible worlds, and no state would be conceivable in which rational creatures are not loved by God however hateful they may be.

    But this doesn’t mean we can posit impossible states and claim compatibility between God’s love and that state. (And no, I’m going to spell out what makes an irrevocable, eternal hell and impossible state. It’s been spelled out too many times.)

    ———————

    6
    Rooney: I do not posit any such necessity, as universalists do, by which God becomes dependent upon His creatures.

    Tom: Nobody here (Hart included) thinks God’s loving us necessarily makes him dependent upon us and such dependence doesn’t follow from the necessity of divine love. And you do indeed posit the necessity of love as universalists do, you just define what it means for God to love in a way that makes the final loss of those he loves something compatible with his loving them. But that universalists rule out on metaphysical grounds the possibilities of annihilation and of irrevocable/eternal hell does not make love and grace something God “owes” us.

    ———————-

    7
    Rooney: …if God could not love a person who rejects Him, but must ensure that all persons are in the state which is best for them (or something like this), then this best state for persons is to be a divine person. Then, if God necessarily does this for…

    Tom: I have to stop you there Fr Rooney. This paragraph is all nonsense. Universalism (hard, soft, medium boiled, fried or scrambled) does not imply that the ‘best for us’ which God wills, and which no capacity of ours can foreclose upon, is that we become divine persons. Becoming ‘a divine person’ alongside the Father, Son, and Spirit is not the ‘highest good’ of any rational creature and so not something God would (or could) will for us. God wills ‘our’ highest good in him, not that we become ‘the sumum bonum’ itself (which only God can be).

    Rooney: God can love created persons who have a will distinct from His own and who are not necessarily in union with Him.

    Tom: I don’t disagree. And I doubt my compatibilist universalist friends disagree, for they do not suppose (just as many Catholic compatibilists do not suppose) that compatibilism means creatures have no will of their own and are not distinct from God.

    ——————–

    8
    Rooney: What I object to is not any use of the word ‘necessary’ in reference to God (as, clearly, there are lots of legitimate uses of this word – God exists ‘necessarily,’ etc.), but that it cannot be necessarily the case that we are in union with God.

    Tom: I’m a libertarian, and so a synergist lock, stock, and barrel. But I don’t accuse my compatibilst universalist partners in crime of positing the ‘metaphysical necessity’ of our union with God. Creation’s end (whatever it is) cannot be any more ‘necessary’ than creation itself, and since creation is not itself ontologically necessary, nothing about it can be necessary in that sense. It’s all contingent. If DBH denies this (and I’m not convinced he does) and doubles down on the ontological necessity of creation, then just know that not all hard universalists do so, nor must they.

    I’m no compatibilist, but it’s not like compatibilism is heresy. And if you know Hart, you know he has explicitly denied that his view of divine-human exchange of grace and human agency is sufficiently captured by any of the theories of choice on offer, including compatibilism. It may be that (as I believe) deliberative (libertarian) choice is a necessary means of our coming to final union with God, but this does not logically imply the capacity to foreclose upon all possibility of union with God, nor does it logically imply that the choice for God is equivalent to a coin toss repeated ad infinitum.

    Like

    • stmichael71 says:

      “It is known in the apprehension of God’s love as unconditional and infinite, the act that grounds and gives us our capacities and powers, a love that wills and pursues without end our highest well-being in him.”

      Then it seems to me what you are saying, as always, is that you believe universalism is truly simply because you believe it is true. However, there is no reason – as we naturally know it or as it is revealed – that you cannot love someone who is morally evil, except if at some point they actually become morally good. It is false and undermines straightforwardly Christian notions of love of enemy and sinner. We love people in view of them overcoming their sin, desiring the greatest goods for them, but we love them whether or not they actually achieve those goods. It is not loving merely to love the future state of a person, rather than who they are in the present.

      ————-
      “One cannot assume from the Romans passage that since the existence of those loved by Christ manifests God’s goodness in some measure (God is loving them and their existence instantiates some measure of being loved by God), ergo the same would be true of those suffering eternally, ergo God’s permitting such torment and suffering must be compatible with God’s being Love and the Good as such.”

      “…the former does not logically imply the latter.”

      Actually, it does. The passage simply notes that God loves us while we are sinners. At the same time that we are sinners, God loves us. If God loved us while we were sinners, He does not love merely the ‘us’ that is in a future state at which we cease to be His enemies. He loved us at the same time we were His enemies. This implies that God can love us at every time we are His enemies. So, yes, the passage implies that God could love someone who is at every time His enemy.

      The passage says nothing about God loving them because their existence manifests His goodness to some degree. But, indeed, if that’s what you claim, then it also follows straightforwardly that God can love His enemies at every time they exist. Since they have existence, and ‘the existence of those loved by Christ manifest’s God’s goodness in some measure,’ then it follows that, as long as the damned exist, God continues to love them. If we assume that they continue to exist forever, then, necessarily, God loves them, since they exist. So, what you said also logically entails that it is possible God loves the damned.

      ————-

      “…the universalist’s claim that God loves necessarily (per his nature), and that this loves precludes from the scope of possible ends our foreclosing upon ourselves the possibility of union with God – these do not reduce such love to an obligation to give creatures something they are ‘owed.'”

      We differ not on whether God is loving, and necessarily or essentially Love, but on what that means or entails. So, I’ve never argued that the mere belief God necessarily is Love entails that God owes anyone anything. I have argued that if God cannot create persons who are not necessarily in union with Him, given what they are, then He would owe those creatures grace, given what they are.

      Just saying God is love, and necessarily is loving, does not entail anything about whether God can create persons that are possibly not in union with Him.

      ——————

      “Of course God can love us without our loving him… But this doesn’t mean we can posit impossible states… (And no, I’m going to spell out what makes an irrevocable, eternal hell and impossible state. It’s been spelled out too many times.)”

      I don’t think you’ve ever spelled it out, since, of course, that’s the ground of our contention. It is simply not impossible that a created person should forever fail to love God supernaturally and participate in God’s nature. That is all I need for my position to follow. There’s nothing else at all involved in this conversation.

      But now you can see the whole point, metaphysically speaking: if you are a creature, you are not a part of God. You are not necessarily a part of God, since God can exist without you. God is free to create persons or not. You are not contingently a part of God, since God has no parts contingently either. You are not the sort of thing that, if God creates you, He must ensure that you are unified with Him. Nothing apart from a divine Person is like that. If you were such that God necessarily had to ensure you were in union with Him, you’d be a divine Person like Christ.

      ———————

      “Nobody here (Hart included) thinks God’s loving us necessarily makes him dependent upon us and such dependence doesn’t follow from the necessity of divine love.”

      They might not believe their position entails it, but their position DOES entail it, as I’ve argued above.

      ———————-

      “Universalism (hard, soft, medium boiled, fried or scrambled) does not imply that the ‘best for us’ which God wills, and which no capacity of ours can foreclose upon, is that we become divine persons. Becoming ‘a divine person’ alongside the Father, Son, and Spirit is not the ‘highest good’ of any rational creature and so not something God would (or could) will for us. God wills ‘our’ highest good in him, not that we become ‘the sumum bonum’ itself (which only God can be).”

      Yes, it does. Grace is a participation in God’s nature, the summum bonum itself. If God cannot create a human person who is not ensured to be in a state of grace, that’s just to say that human beings by what they are necessarily participate in the divine nature. To necessarily participate in the divine nature can have a ground either in our essence or in our person. If we necessarily participate in the divine nature, given our essence, we are by essence divine. If we necessarily participate in the divine nature, given our person, we are by hypostasis a divine person.

      So, if you are a hard universalist and you claim that it is literally and strictly impossible for God to create a free person – or create and raise them to the possibility of grace – without ensuring that this person is necessarily a participant in God’s own nature (such that it is impossible for them to reject that union by their own choices, for example), then the above logically follows. If you are, by contrast, a contingent or soft universalist, then the above does not follow. (That is why I differentiate the two as quite logically distinct.)

      ——————–

      “What I object to is not any use of the word ‘necessary’ in reference to God (as, clearly, there are lots of legitimate uses of this word – God exists ‘necessarily,’ etc.), but that it cannot be necessarily the case that we are in union with God.”

      Tom: “I’m a libertarian, and so a synergist lock, stock, and barrel. But I don’t accuse my compatibilst universalist partners in crime of positing the ‘metaphysical necessity’ of our union with God.”

      This has nothing in itself to do with theories of freedom. It has to do with what is possible or necessary, simpliciter. If it is impossible for God to create a person that is not necessarily in union with Him, then that person is either divine by nature or hypostasis. That’s just what it is to be a divine person: to be a person such that one necessarily, given God’s essence, possesses the divine nature. That’s not a claim about whether we possess free will or not. It’s a claim about what it means for the relation between God and humanity, if humans are such that they are necessarily in union with God.

      Like

    • David says:

      “Yes, it does. Grace is a participation in God’s nature, the summum bonum itself. If God cannot create a human person who is not ensured to be in a state of grace, that’s just to say that human beings by what they are necessarily participate in the divine nature. To necessarily participate in the divine nature can have a ground either in our essence or in our person. If we necessarily participate in the divine nature, given our essence, we are by essence divine. If we necessarily participate in the divine nature, given our person, we are by hypostasis a divine person.”

      But God just *is* the divine nature. You concede that persons can participate in the divine nature. So you must agree that to participate in something does not mean one the same as that thing, i.e. to participate in God does not mean one is actually God. Red things necessarily participate in ‘shapeness’ (i.e. all coloured objects must have a shape). But that does not mean that red things are identical with shapeness, or identical with their particular shape.

      Participation – whether contingently or necessarily – does not make one identical to that thing. So what is the problem? Sure, some universalists might think we are divine by nature, but that does not mean they think we become the Persons of the Trinity.

      In any case, the Universalist position is just that the good/right thing – the thing that the Good will necessarily do – is to save all. It’s not saying that human nature – considered ‘alone’ – will automatically participate in the divine nature. Rather it’s just pointing out that we – our human natures – are never truly alone. And that therefore the divine nature is such that – if a human nature is bought into existence – the divine nature will necessarily make the human nature participate in itself.

      Like

      • Tom says:

        “Participation – whether contingently or necessarily – does not make one identical to that thing.”

        Rooney is being ridiculously nonsensical. The Eastern doctrine of participation is not that one participates in God ‘by nature’. And even if one were a universalist who believed in participation and posited the impossibility of the final loss of any, oh say, Gregory of Nyssa, he would not on account of his universalism therefore believe in participation ‘by nature’.

        Like

        • stmichael71 says:

          Tom,

          The Eastern doctrine does not hold that we *necessarily* participate in God’s nature. That is, of course, the distinction I am drawing attention to. I am not disputing that we participate in God’s nature. I am drawing attention to the consequences of the belief that we do so necessarily.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Tom says:

            Nobody is claiming that Orthodoxy makes the necessity of theosis a creedal or dogmatic belief. But some do hold to it.

            The relevant point is that the Orthodox do not hold that we participate in the divine essence/nature, which as such is imparticipable. So whatever necessity might qualify our eventual union with God, its being inevitable (or necessary) does not make it a union ‘of nature’.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            “The relevant point is that the Orthodox do not hold that we participate in the divine essence/nature, which as such is imparticipable. So whatever necessity might qualify our eventual union with God, its being inevitable (or necessary) does not make it a union ‘of nature’.”

            I argued that, if we necessarily participate in the divine nature, this can only have one of two grounds. It would either be that we are necessarily divine by reason of essence or by reason of our hypostasis. There are no other facts about us that would ground this. So, yes, if you want to deny that we are necessarily united with God by being naturally divine, then it would seem you are stuck on the fork of the dilemma where we are by hypostasis divine persons. To be a divine person is to be the sort of person such that one necessarily participates in the divine nature, such that the Father, Son, and Spirit are necessarily (by means of who they are) related to you. If you hold that universalism is true, but we are not divine by nature, then it seems to me you are committed to such a view of human persons. But, of course, it is absurd that we are divine persons. There is only one only-begotten Son of God, no?

            Like

          • Tom says:

            “I argued that, if we necessarily participate in the divine nature…”

            Stop there. Necessarily or contingently, participation isn’t “of natures” or by nature. The divine essence/nature as such is imparticipable, period.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            “Stop there. Necessarily or contingently, participation isn’t ‘of natures’ or by nature. The divine essence/nature as such is imparticipable, period.”

            First, St. Peter seems to disagree with you: “His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust” (2 Pet. 1:3-4).

            So does Maximus the Confessor’s 24th Epistle: ‘That is why God created us, that we might become partakers of the divine nature’.

            So does Gregory Palamas, who cites the above two things approvingly (PG 150, 933AD) [as cited by Norman Russell, in his commentary about use of 2 Pet. 1:4 in the Byzantine East.]

            In order to dispel the confusion between God’s nature and essence, we can follow Palamas’ distinctions. He thinks it is true in one sense that we participate in the divine nature, but not in another. We cannot essentially become God. [That is why I, like Palamas would reject universalists who claim either that we are essentially divine or whose position entails it.] Instead, according to Palamas (and I agree with Palamas) we have a relation to God’s nature by means of the divine energies. These are participations in God’s own nature, but not in His essence. The energies are nevertheless God – uncreated and eternal.

            Nevertheless, those energies are, however, related contingently to various things ad extra, such as humans in a state of grace. And Palamas (like myself) holds clearly that our relation to these energies is necessarily a contingent one. In our context, that means that it is not necessarily the case that any created human being would be ensured to participate in these energies. The reason that Palamas thinks we should reject that we necessarily participate in the divine energies is exactly the same as mine: if we did, we would have a necessary relation to the divine energies and be uncreated. Universalism requires denying Palamas’ claims here.

            Like

          • Tom says:

            Lord have mercy.

            You Orthodox folk here who know better ought to speak up.

            —————-

            Obviously the language of 2Pet explicitly says we “participate in the nature of God.” But to what does “nature” here refer, and in what sense is participation meant? It’s a legit question, but none of the Fathers you mention take it to imply that the essence/nature of God as such is participable. For example, Maximus (who you mention) mentions 2Pet twice, in Letter 24 (which you mention) in which he’s basically just quoting 2Pet, but more importantly in Letter 12 (which you ignore) where he actually says Christ has made us partakers of the divine nature “not through identity of substance/essence but through the ineffable power of his Incarnation.” For all these Fathers (and their use of participation is not altogether uniform) the divine essence as such is simple and beyond participation.

            Whatever necessity (not ‘ontological necessity’ certainly, since creation is ontologically continent and no universalist thinks our union with God is an ontological necessity) might qualify the movement of rational creatures to final union with God, it does not involve our becoming the divine essence. You are mistaken.

            Like

          • Tom says:

            Macarius of Egypt (a universalist) for example. God has made us worthy to become “partakers of his substance” (μετόχους της ουσίας αυτού), and in the resurrection “all alike are changed into a divine nature, having become christs and gods and children of God.”

            Of this Russel writes: “This last statement is somewhat startling. The first part of it bears a close resemblance to one of the condemned Messalian propositions in the list recorded by Timothy of Constantinople: ‘They say that the soul of anyone regarded by them as a spiritual man, after attaining what they call dispassion, is changed into the divine and uncompounded nature’… We may note, however, that the statements in Timothy and the Homilies are not identical. Ps.-Macarius says ‘into a divine nature’ (εις θεϊκήv γαρ φύσιν); the condemned proposition reads ‘into the divine and uncompounded nature’ (εις τηv θείαν και ακήρατον φύσιν). In Ps.-Macarius the soul does not become the same as the Father but is spiritualised in a manner reminiscent of Origen. The soul, indeed, has no natural relationship with God. In so far as it does acquire a divine nature, this is ‘a divine charism’, ‘a gift from the hypostasis of [the Father’s] Godhead’.”

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          • David says:

            Father, consider that some substances *accidentally* and *contingently* participate in ‘sphericalness’ – e.g. my playdough is a sphere, but if I squish it flat it will still be playdough.

            Other substances *essentially* and *necessarily* participate in sphericalness – e.g. a planet is a sphere, but if it’s squished into a pancake it no longer counts as a planet.

            But in neither case does the substance magically transform into ‘sphericalness’ itself.

            Similarly, creatures can participate in the divine nature. But whether they do so accidentally or by the essence is neither here nor there. A creature which is such that it will necessarily be treated by God in a way that means they ultimately participate in God’s nature… they don’t somehow ‘turn into’ the divine nature itself (which is identical with God) any more than a sphere ‘turns into’ Sphereness.

            I mean, are you really arguing that it’s wrong to say creatures literally become necessarily God, but that it’s fine to say they literally become God contingently? Surely both are as bad as each other. To participate in something does not mean one participates fully in that thing in the sense of actually *being* that thing. A human participates in the divine inasmuch that such participation is possible for a human – that is to say partially.

            In any case, God is such that he necessarily *is* divine. Human beings – even on your extreme reading of the universalist position – are not such that they necessarily *are* divine. At best they are such that they necessarily *become* divine. These two realities are obviously distinct state of affairs and therefore – whatever it means to say a human being has necessarily ‘become’ divine at the eschaton – it cannot mean they are divine in the same sense as God.

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          • stmichael71 says:

            “…some substances *accidentally* and *contingently* participate in ‘sphericalness’… Other substances *essentially* and *necessarily* participate in sphericalness – e.g. a planet is a sphere, but if it’s squished into a pancake it no longer counts as a planet. But in neither case does the substance magically transform into ‘sphericalness’ itself.”

            It doesn’t need to. Notice what you just said: some kinds of things essentially and necessarily are spheres. They instantiate sphericalness. But you cannot instantiate divinity without being divine. The only equivalent of being an ‘instance’ of the divine nature is to be a divine hypostasis, one of the Persons. If we were to do that, we are divine persons. But that is exactly what you say when you say ‘this person essentially and necessarily instantiates the divine nature.’

            “creatures can participate in the divine nature. But whether they do so accidentally or by the essence is neither here nor there.”

            Yes, it is. That’s one of the options. If you actually participate in the divine nature by essence, you are a divine thing. There is no other way to participate in God’s nature by way of your essence, since that’s just to say that God’s nature is a constituent of you.

            “A creature which is such that it will necessarily be treated by God in a way that means they ultimately participate in God’s nature… they don’t somehow ‘turn into’ the divine nature itself (which is identical with God) any more than a sphere ‘turns into’ Sphereness.”

            Here, you’re confusing the way in which universals can be partially or incompletely instantiated. Divinity cannot be partially instantiated. It is impossible for anything to be ‘kind-of’ divine or for God to have parts or for God to compose a part of anything. That is a reason the cases are not parallel.

            “I mean, are you really arguing that it’s wrong to say creatures literally become necessarily God, but that it’s fine to say they literally become God contingently? Surely both are as bad as each other.”

            No, they are not. The latter is simply the Christian doctrine of deification: God became man so that man might become God. If what we participate in is not the divine nature, is not God, then this claim would be false. Gregory Palamas fought that heresy, and I agree with Palamas.

            “To participate in something does not mean one participates fully in that thing in the sense of actually *being* that thing. A human participates in the divine inasmuch that such participation is possible for a human – that is to say partially. …In any case, God is such that he necessarily *is* divine. Human beings – even on your extreme reading of the universalist position – are not such that they necessarily *are* divine. At best they are such that they necessarily *become* divine.”

            You are right that universalists do not claim we ‘fully’ instantiate the divine nature, since we remain somehow partly created and so participants in His nature. Clearly, the most incoherent view is to think we are essentially divine by nature. For, to be essentially a participant in God’s nature, in the sense that what or who we are is necessarily divine, is to be divine by nature. But, if we remain created in part, and we affirm the distinction between divine and uncreated nature, we have to explain what it is about human beings makes this union a necessary one. That’s why I think the more appealing route (taken by Bulgakov et al) is to think the person is divine and envision it as a hypostatic union, where we are a necessarily divine person but having two natures. This is ultimately what your position implies, since you both affirm that we remain distinct in nature, but that we eventually become divine. Yet, if we imagine that Christ’s hypostatic union were necessary to Him, then the created nature would be necessary/essential to the divine nature, since His personhood is divine and divine persons are ultimately identical with God’s essence. This is then a metaphysically incoherent position, but it is one that Jordan Daniel Wood and Hart both seem to accept. And I think that they are right to draw out this conclusion from the universalist framework. Since there are no other grounds for this metaphysical necessity except our nature or person, if both of these fail, then universalism is false.

            “These two realities are obviously distinct state of affairs and therefore – whatever it means to say a human being has necessarily ‘become’ divine at the eschaton – it cannot mean they are divine in the same sense as God.”

            I think you are confusing things. We would necessarily be those persons that receive their divine from the Father, since it is necessary that we are participants in the divine nature. Yet we necessarily receive that nature. This is the position of the Son and the Spirit. They necessarily receive their being from the Father, but are no less consubstantial with Him. To receive your being in this way, on account of your person, is to be a divine person – a hypostasis of the divine nature, essential to it.

            “You hold that humans are necessarily the object of God’s love and justice. But God himself is an object of his own love and justice, and so these are just as much ‘divine properties’ as being loving and just. So you too hold that all persons necessarily participate in the divine, and so would be ‘divine persons’.”

            That is simply to misunderstand my argument. I am not arguing against the view that God necessarily is loving or good. And the fact that God is necessarily loving or good has no bearing on the argument. Nor is the fact problematic that, if God contingently wills to do X, then, necessarily, He wills to do X. I am not arguing against this either. What is problematic, I argue, is that God’s nature becomes essentially/necessarily related to creatures, if universalism were true. This would be the case if God merely being good or loving, which is an essential property of God, entails that He creates and divinizes human beings; or, if God cannot desire to create and raise human persons to share in His life without also necessarily ensuring that these persons participate in His nature. If either were true, creatures would be necessary participants in God’s nature, given facts about them (what or who they are). To the contrary, I maintain that it is impossible that God necessarily gives a participation in His divine nature to anyone – participation in the divine nature by a creature is always contingent. So, no, I never have held that “all persons necessarily participate in the divine….” That is simply false.

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      • stmichael71 says:

        “Participation – whether contingently or necessarily – does not make one identical to that thing. So what is the problem?”

        You are right that participation does not make what is participated identical with what it participates in. My problem does not require that it does. If participation is contingent, there is no problem. If participation in the divine nature is necessary for creatures like us, then this can be on account of what we are or who we are. If it is on account of what we are, we are by nature divine. If it is on account of who we are, as persons, then we are divine persons (since that is just what it is to be a divine person: to be a person such that it necessarily has the divine nature).

        “Sure, some universalists might think we are divine by nature, but that does not mean they think we become the Persons of the Trinity.”

        If we were divine by nature, we are persons, and a person that is divine by nature is a divine person. So, yes, you would not literally become the Son or the Spirit. You would, on this theory, be something like a 4th Person.

        “…the Universalist position is just that the good/right thing – the thing that the Good will necessarily do – is to save all. It’s not saying that human nature – considered ‘alone’ – will automatically participate in the divine nature. Rather it’s just pointing out that we – our human natures – are never truly alone.”

        These claims do not avoid the problem. It’s irrelevant that human nature could not exist by itself. The problem is that we are akin to necessary parts of God or to divine Persons. The Triune Persons do not exist independently of God either.

        I am show that this is simply the logical consequence of the last claim you make ” the divine nature is such that – if a human nature is bought into existence – the divine nature will necessarily make the human nature participate in itself.” If we have this relation to the divine nature by reason of what or who we are, then we are not adopted but natural sons of God.

        But, of course, there is one only-begotten Son. Since universalism requires a poppycock pantheistic metaphysics that contradicts central Christian beliefs, it is false. I would just conclude by noting that universalism only looks necessary to protect God’s loving goodness, I think, because of the way in which universalists caricature what the orthodox view requires. Here is what the orthodox view, on which hell is possible, requires: that we are creatures who do not participate in God’s nature except by His good pleasure, contingently. “…otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

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        • David says:

          “If participation in the divine nature is necessary for creatures like us, then this can be on account of what we are or who we are. If it is on account of what we are, we are by nature divine. If it is on account of who we are, as persons, then we are divine persons (since that is just what it is to be a divine person: to be a person such that it necessarily has the divine nature).”

          “These claims do not avoid the problem. It’s irrelevant that human nature could not exist by itself.”

          The point I’m making is not that human nature couldn’t exist by itself. That’s trivially true and not something I’ve drawn attention to.

          Rather, I’m saying that there is nothing in human nature that means we will *automatically* become divine. So the fact that we will become divine lies entirely in the divine nature, i.e. God. Our nature does not mean we will naturally unfurl into perfection. Rather God’s nature is such that he will perfect all. That’s it.

          You might say that there is something in our nature which makes us *capable* of becoming divine – capable of receiving perfection. But the only means by which this potentiality is converted into actuality is through an unmerited act of God. So the sense in which are ‘guaranteed’ to be divine.

          In any case, I perfectly find the whole language of ‘becoming divine’ unhelpful. I don’t use that language myself. If it has any meaning, I see it as just meaning we are ‘in union with’ in the sense that our human natures have been perfected such that we are now as ‘close’ to the divine nature as we could be, or we are in proper relationship with the divine nature.

          My basis claim is just that human nature is such that it has the potential to be perfected and that – exclusively and solely due to the divine nature of God – God will necessarily act to ensure it receives that perfection.

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          • stmichael71 says:

            “…there is nothing in human nature that means we will *automatically* become divine. So the fact that we will become divine lies entirely in the divine nature, i.e. God. Our nature does not mean we will naturally unfurl into perfection. Rather God’s nature is such that he will perfect all. That’s it.”

            I did not include in my argument the claim that we would be divinized independently of God or God’s action. So, it’s simply a distinction without a different, as the conclusions still follow. What you are saying is exactly this: we are of such a nature that, if God were to create us, we could not fail to be divinized.

            “You might say that there is something in our nature which makes us *capable* of becoming divine – capable of receiving perfection. But the only means by which this potentiality is converted into actuality is through an unmerited act of God. So the sense in which are ‘guaranteed’ to be divine.”

            Much of this is exactly what I am saying. Notice, however, that the sentence in which you claim “this potentiality is converted into actuality is through an unmerited act of God” is false. It is not unmerited or undeserved, since not even God could create you and fail to ensure that this divinization is actual. Now, it can be unhelpful to speak of ‘merit’ or ‘demerit,’ when it is easier and more straightforward to just point out that it is a fact about your nature that makes God do this.

            It seems, on what you said, that God does not necessarily create you. But you think God necessarily perfects whatever potentiality anything has. So, if God wishes to create anything, then it is necessary He fulfill their ends perfectly, right? But then it is what human beings are, their nature, that explains why God must ensure that they are participants in the divine nature. It’s not merely God that does, as God could have existed without you. You could not have existed without God. But the point is that the relation between you is necessary. But this is exactly like the way that the relation between the divine nature and the divine Persons is necessary. In other words, the fact you are ‘guaranteed to be divine’ is exactly the same as the way Christ is the natural and only-begotten Son of God.

            But you and I are not natural sons of God, but adopted sons of God. So, it is false we are ‘guaranteed’ to be divine. That would be simply to imply that we are – by nature or person – not creatures.

            Like

          • Counter-Rebel says:

            I pray to God that someone refute Rooney’s blasphemous evil once and for all. It’s disgusting. God, please send a universalist much smarter than myself that will put a stop to this crap. These non-universalists spit in Your face.

            Liked by 1 person

          • David says:

            As I said though Father – I simply don’t think the ‘divine’ language is ultimately very helpful. I don’t think we literally become divine in the sense you are taking it. In which case I am not saying that our necessary union with God is “exactly like the way that the relation between the divine nature and the divine Persons is necessary”. The divine Persons are literally divine.

            However – if we want to maintain the divine language – I would ask you to carefully consider this: is God unjust to himself, or unloving to himself?

            I would argue – obviously not. God loves Himself with perfect love. He also is not unjust to himself, so in a sense he even treats Himself with perfect justice.

            That is, a quality of God is not just that he *is* loving and just – but also that God receives God’s love and receives God’s justice. God is the object as well as the subject of God’s love.

            This means that being the recipient of God’s love and God’s justice *is just as much a necessary part of the ‘divine nature’ as giving God’s love and justice.* The Son is just as divine as the Father.

            But remember that you argue that creatures are necessarily the object of God’s perfect justice and – while we disagree over what the requirements of perfect love are – you agree with me that God necessarily loves all (and so, on your scheme, he loves the damned with a perfect love). At any rate, you agree that God is just, and so cannot just treat us in any kind of way.

            But this means you think that human beings – on your terms – *necessarily* are loved by God, and at any rate treated with justice by God. But these too are divine properties!

            Doesn’t this fatally undermine your argument? You are basically saying that I hold that humans will necessarily be perfected – in the sense that, like God, they will become perfectly loving and perfectly just – but that to be perfectly loving and perfectly just is to participate in the divine and therefore – you hold – to necessarily participate in the divine just is to be God.

            But the same argument can be turned around on you. You hold that humans are necessarily the object of God’s love and justice. But God himself is an object of his own love and justice, and so these are just as much ‘divine properties’ as being loving and just. So you too hold that all persons necessarily participate in the divine, and so would be ‘divine persons’.

            I think the obvious conclusion is therefore that there is no problem and either a) being such that God will definitely treat us in a certain way is not the same thing – as you argue – as being such that by nature we necessarily are treated that way; and/or b) participation does not mean ‘100%’ participation. I mean, shapes necessarily participate in Shape-hood, but the fact that – once created – a shape is necessarily a shape does not mean it was always already identical to shapehood itself. Similarly, just because human beings will necessarily be acted on by God such that they have have a certain share in the divine nature, it does not mean they literally become God.

            Like

  19. Counter-Rebel says:

    Dear God,

    Please cure me of my intense misery. It’s bad enough I hate life, but the thought I could suffer forever because of a spontaneous, unpredictable bad choice is unbearably painful. I don’t know how non-universalists can sleep at night with the belief they may commit mortal sin at any moment and be tortured forever. How do they get through the workday? How do they deal with their everyday duties? If one really believed in hell, I think it would slowly choke them out till they couldn’t function.

    It’s a self-evident truth that You wouldn’t allow hell. It’s a basic moral intuition, and I suspect that it is so, for what deeper intuition could one appeal to? One couldn’t appeal to principles concerning the domain of temporal pains, so the only remaining domain is whether or not You’d allow eternal pain.

    For morally sufficient reasons, You allow this most evil doctrine to torment people like me. Please help me to cope with the fact that there are people who seem to stop at nothing to defend the idea You’d permit eternal hell because of an indeterministic event. I hate You because of the pain I endure, but I know I will overcome that hatred someday with your help. In the end, You will save all. Amen.

    Love (through hate),
    Michael

    Liked by 1 person

    • stmichael71 says:

      Dear Michael,

      It is very painful to hear your suffering. I certainly hear the cries of the oppressed – like yourself – and I judge in their favor. I came not to torment you, not to judge you, but to offer you hope, so that whoever believes in Me will never perish. It hurts me too to hear that you hate life, since I came that you might have life – everlasting life – and have it to the full. You’re the one I was looking for! I came out to find you, and here you are!

      You know what it is to sit in your hatred of Me, of yourself, and of life itself. But set before you is both death *and life*. I came to make you free: therefore, choose life! I stand at the door of your heart and knock. You hear My voice now – opens the door! I will come in to you and dine with you at the banquet of peace, and you with Me.

      I did not leave you an orphan, but left you My very Self, My Spirit and my Love, to be with you – and I left you so many other helps through which you would feel my Spirit: in other people, in doctors, in friends and family, in the Church and my Word. There is no place so painful, so dark, so hateful, that I am not there with you. However bad you feel, however persuasive it feels that ‘what you will to do, you don’t do’, I am with you to help you become that person you want to become – that I see in you to become.

      Let go of your own interior torment, Michael; listen to the Lord who created you. The one who formed you says: “Do not be afraid, for I have ransomed you. I have called you by name; you are mine.” Talk is cheap, like daydreams and other useless activities. God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. By faith you can understand: I want *you* – Michael – whom the Father has given me, to be with me where I am. Then you will see all the glory the Father gave me because He loved me even before the world began! So too I have loved you and chosen you. I have called you back from the ends of the earth, saying, ‘You are my servant.’ For I have chosen you and will not throw you away.

      If only you call out to me, and hold on to me through your faith, I will be there, protecting you by my power, until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see. I am not like mankind; I do not lie. I am not like men, so I do not change my mind. Have I ever spoken and failed to act? Has I ever promised and not carried it through? Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery. If God Himself is for you, who can ever be against you?

      Yours in Christ,
      A Friend

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      • Counter-Rebel says:

        I appreciate your concern, but I know that “A Friend” is Rooney, who worships an evil God who allows eternal torment. A “love” that does not guarantee joy-for-the-beloved is an evil love and not worthwhile.

        Luckily, all men know deep down that hell is evil. But “the show must go on,” as Alan Watts said.

        Like

        • stmichael71 says:

          Since you do not seem to think God’s acts are like coin flips, but that God is good and does what He does intentionally, and that what He freely does necessarily reflects His character, you can assume that we are like this.

          Why is it impossible – on that assumption – that God both love someone and allow that person freely, intentionally to reject Him?

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          • Counter-Rebel says:

            Libertarian free choices are like coin tosses in at least one respect: unpredictability.

            It’s already been demonstrated that your God is evil. Plus, there is no need to prove to you what you already know.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            Do you think God’s actions are unpredictable?

            Like

          • Counter-Rebel says:

            Been through this already. Not wasting my time.

            Like

          • Joe says:

            “It’s already been demonstrated that your God is evil.”

            Yes, in Fr Rooney’s world, God knows that “the damned” are in excruciating pain; he knows that the option for metanoia has been absolutely and forever foreclosed to them; he knows that they are now permanently incapable of receiving the gifts that would lift their torment, much less render their life worth living; he knows that they want nothing more than to simply cease existing in order to end the pain.

            In short, God knows that they are inextricably trapped in an unchanging state of dire misery and yet….he willfully, intentionally, purposefully sustains them in their being, for what can be no other reason than that they experience their state of being, as this is the only outcome that is now possible.

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      • Robert F says:

        Fr Rooney, You are replying to a man who is sending up his heartfelt and heart wrenching prayer to God as if you know God’s mind, and can answer for him and in his voice, but you don’t, and you can’t. You don’t get to answer for God. Perhaps you like to play God, but you should know better. You are hurting someone who is in the most vulnerable position. Stay in your lane.

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        • Counter-Rebel says:

          I don’t mind Rooney answering for “God.” He’s a “priest,” after all. What I mind is the answer. I should’ve responded to God by saying, “So what if you love me and all that other crap? Doesn’t change the fact I may commit mortal sin at any moment and be tortured forever.”

          Like

  20. Tom says:

    If the Orthodox here don’t step in and address Rooney’s nonsense about our participation in God, I’m positively embarrassed for you all.

    Like

  21. Robert F says:

    For some of us who have struggled with the torment of the doctrine of hell since being taught it in childhood, it is best to ignore Fr Rooney’s arguments, and do our best simply to trust the God who teaches us his mercy through our own hearts and the presence of loving, caring people in our lives. Fr Rooney has no special authority or experience in these matters, nor does he have any overwhelmingly cogent argument to advance his position, despite his theological training, and he most certainly and emphatically has no right or competence to answer prayer in God’s stead. Ignore him, because he is only too likely to open the wound afresh, and keep it open in the service of some need of his own.

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    • stmichael71 says:

      Robert,

      What I would like you (and Michael) to see is that these doctrines are life-giving and express God’s mercy, helping us – as you want – to trust God and to find the presence of loving, caring people in our lives as ways in which God touches us.

      To put it another way, universalism is a cage that people make to protect themselves from God, to protect themselves from despair when they find it hard to trust or hope in God – whether that is a time when a loved one dies horribly or they are having a hard time overcoming sin. So they come up with a story that God would never allow anyone to reject His love, and make this self-made god the basis of their ‘hope’ in universal salvation. But hope that is seen is not hope. It is a kind of presumption.

      We are saved instead by hope. For if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. It is possible to trust a God that has given us faith and hope as a gift that we can reject, because He did not leave us as orphans – we is with us even when we think He is not, even when we realize we ourselves are unreliable. With His help, we can do all things. There is nothing to struggle with and no torment in the doctrine of God’s grace, of which the orthodox doctrine of hell is merely the consequence. We don’t need universalism to find and trust God.

      Like

      • Counter-Rebel says:

        Nothing but hogwash here. You can repeat “God is love” and other pep talk lines all you want, but on your view, ONE MAY COMMIT MORTAL SIN AT ANY MOMENT AND BE TORTURED FOREVER. Nothing you said contravenes that. Your God is infinitely evil and you know it.

        God’s grace necessitates hell is the stupidest thing ever. “I love you so much I’ll torture you forever because of an unpredictable choice to do B over A.” There is no conflict between free will and necessitarian universalism.

        Like

        • stmichael71 says:

          Are God’s actions unpredictable in such a way as to make it impossible for God to be fully responsible for what He does?

          Like

      • Robert F says:

        No, Father. It’s not a kind of presumption. It is a faith born of the desperation of knowing that not only can’t we meet the requirement to consistently believe and behave in the right way, but we are are not even sure what right belief and behavior are, and all the many voices concerning what is orthodoxy only make us spin in dizzying circles and become so lost that all we can do is desperately clutch at faith in God who’s character is never to give up on us no matter how erroneous our doctrine is, no matter how egregious our behavior is. No, it is not a kind of presumption, but rather a faith borne out of the humiliated desperation that comes from being beaten down by the ogre of orthodoxy, of right religion.

        Like

        • Robert F says:

          ….whose…

          Like

        • Joe says:

          C’mon Robert, it is so patently obvious that the doctrine of everlasting suffering is life-giving and expresses God’s mercy! You’d have be a a real dolt not to see that.

          All you need is hope, Robert, the hope that you will avert the dire consequence of grace. And this is the key— you must hope in this god that allows eternal suffering in order that you avoid the very eternal suffering that he allows.

          You had the right idea when you realized that it is best to ignore him. Notice that he refuses to answer the most basic questions that pertain to his motivations.

          Like

          • Robert F says:

            >All you need is hope, Robert, the hope that you will avert the dire consequence of grace.

            Lol! I recently read Marilynne Robinson’s latest novel in which the eponymous character, Jack, on one or two occasions says that, in his experience, it has been impossible to distinguish between grace and guilt. In addition, Jack, a professed atheist who nonetheless is frequently thinking in theological terms, asks a clergyman if he could explain the difference between faith and presumption. It’s a good question, but he never gets an answer in the book, and I can’t help wonder, in light of his accusation of universalist presumption above, how Fr Rooney would answer it.

            Like

        • stmichael71 says:

          “…not only can’t we meet the requirement to consistently believe and behave in the right way, but we are are not even sure what right belief and behavior are…”

          I am very sad for you. I think, like Michael, you found yourself in deep darkness and hatred of God, because of your religious confusion, and saw universalism as the only way to cope with that.

          But this presupposition that God puts us in this darkness and that we can do nothing about it is simply a lie. With God’s help, all things are possible and nobody can be against us. You can put your trust in Him and live a good life. “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: A broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.” What does not give us light and peace is coming up with a story about how God would be cruel for asking you to believe and hope for what you cannot see, and then only living in desperation on the basis of what you cling to as a substitute for faith and hope in God. It is true that faith and hope are a belief in what is unseen – but they give us a light to our feet and an assurance of what is promised. We can trust that the Lord will be faithful, if we trust and hope in Him. That is our true peace.

          Like

          • David says:

            Father Rooney,

            Telling people that they “hate God” is totally over the line.

            I hope this isn’t too direct, but I think you really need a wake up call and to understand that your pastoral skills are truly atrocious.

            This – along with your other recents contribution – is just not the way to talk to people who are clearly in pain.

            More generally your manner is just off. You consistently neglect to say thank you for others’ contributions. You reduce the simplest disagreements to heresy while labelling yourself as “eirenic” and “loving”. And – of course – you made a false accusation against someone of “calling people names” and offered no apology. What drives you to treat people like this?

            This unpleasant feature of your approach – combined with your repetitive arguments which most non-universalists must be embarrassed by – just reads as trolling. It isn’t helping anybody. Why bother?

            Like

  22. Counter-Rebel says:

    Assuming it even makes sense to use “moral responsibility” when speaking of God, yes, God would not be fully morally responsible. He would still be ultimately responsible for creation in a causal sense, and so He’d desire to “take responsibility” and ensure that creation ends in deification (or at least paradise).

    Like

    • stmichael71 says:

      But, according to you, God’s decisions are not predictable and His decisions/acts cannot be that for which He is responsible. How, then, is He ultimately responsible for creation? Clearly, He caused it, but it was not a product of His will (on your view) but rather proceeded from Him by indeterministic, unpredictable coin flips. Further, if God is not in control of His actions now in such a way that they proceed from Him like coin flips, how can He be in control of His actions regarding the ‘end’?

      Like

      • Counter-Rebel says:

        Because moral and causal responsibility are not the same. Creation is an undetermined product of God’s unpredictable will. God is infinitely resourceful. He will find a way.

        “Bulgakov’s logic here is subtle and liable to misinterpretation, so let me clarify. It is not that God is guilty for the sad history of human sin; rather as the Father and Creator of finite, fallible creation by virtue of its constitution *ex nihilo*, as St. Athanasius emphasized in *On the Incarnation*), God is ultimately *responsible* for His creatures and whatever choices they might make.” -Sophiology of Death, p. xxvii

        Like

        • stmichael71 says:

          I’d assume moral responsibility goes both ways – that is, if someone is not really morally responsible for what they do, it’s because what they do does not necessarily correspond to what they want to do or who they are – they are not intentionally in control, however much they are ‘causally responsible’ as the source of those acts. But then it seems that it will not be predictable whether what God does is good? So, for you, on what basis do we know that what God does in the future will be good, since what He does proceeds from His will like a coin flip and does not necessarily reflect His moral character?

          Like

          • Counter-Rebel says:

            God and creatures are intentionally in control, and we know God only does good because He is goodness itself. To say one’s choices are unpredictable is merely to point out that the cause in itself doesn’t entail–doesn’t predict–a specific effect. This is the nature of indeterminism. There is no way for the agent to set up the cause so as to guarantee the right effect happens prior to its happening. It’s left to watch.

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          • stmichael71 says:

            If God is in control of what He does, and His actions will necessarily reflect His character, even though the fact He is Good does not entail that He produces any specific effect, why cannot other people be in control of what they do or, by reason of controlling what they do, be in control of what their character is, despite that what they are does not entail that they produce any specific effect?

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          • Counter-Rebel says:

            There’s causal control and moral control. Creatures have causal control over what they do, but because such control is unpredictable, and they didn’t choose for it to be unpredictable, and they can’t antecedently guarantee the right effect will win, they do not have full moral control.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            As far as you’ve said, God looks to be in the same position vis-a-vis ‘causal control’ as any other person, so it’s not apparent to my why He should have ‘moral control’ and humans beings wouldn’t. I am not sure what distinction you mean by ‘moral’ control, but what you seem to mean is simply that one kind of person can control whether they sin. But, if that is what moral control involves, it is reducible to whether persons exercise causal control over their choices, by which they become good or evil.

            If someone cannot control their actions because they are ‘unpredictable, and they didn’t choose for it to be unpredictable, and they can’t antecedently guarantee the right effect will win,” then the same looks to be true of God. God’s choices are ‘unpredictable’ in the same way, He didn’t choose for His choices to be ‘unpredictable,’ and then it would seem He generates choices that He could not ‘antecedently guarantee’ would be good choices. For, what is prior to God? If He could not antecedently guarantee that His choices, then why would He exercise moral control either?

            And, if someone can control their actions, then they can sin or not. If someone literally cannot control their actions, then I’d think they simply cannot sin or do good acts. If the former, then God can sin too. If the latter, neither God nor us can possibly be good.

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          • Counter-Rebel says:

            I never said God is different from creatures in this respect. They both have causal control and limited moral control. Causal control does not translate to moral control, for there are factors that can reduce a person’s culpability for indeterministically causing/controlling a choice, such as, on my view, unpredictability. Moral control isn’t really the best term. Moral responsibility is better.

            It’s very annoying that you keep coming back to the same accusation. I’ve said repeatedly that agents do have control over their actions. What I deny is that they are fully morally responsible for their choices.

            That God’s actions are unpredictable doesn’t change the fact that He only has good options. It’s unpredictable which (good) one will win out.

            Like

          • stmichael71 says:

            So, if God’s actions are unpredictable (and He is not fully morally responsible for His choices), then I do not see why God cannot allow persons to reject grace.

            On the one hand, God’s actions are unpredictable and He is not fully morally responsible for His choices. If He’s not responsible, His acts might be out of character. Or, if God allows hell to exist, He is not morally responsible for having done so, since His acts were unpredictable, and your claim He would be evil could be false – He just wasn’t ‘really responsible’ for allowing hell, even if He was causally necessary to bring about the world in which hell exists.

            On the other hand, God’s actions are unpredictable. There is then no ground for believing He cannot allow us to reject grace. Since His future actions are unpredictable, He might never do what you think would be required to ensure that every single person is saved, and He might instead permit some to be lost because He might do some other good thing for them instead.

            Like

          • Counter-Rebel says:

            “…I do not see why God cannot allow persons to reject grace.” Because God is perfectly just, and so He wouldn’t punish people for something they aren’t fully responsible for.

            “If He’s not responsible, His acts might be out of character.” That doesn’t follow.

            “Or, if God allows hell to exist, He is not morally responsible for having done so, since His acts were unpredictable”

            It doesn’t follow from unpredictability that we are not morally responsible for what we do. It follows that we are not *fully* morally responsible.

            “On the other hand, God’s actions are unpredictable. There is then no ground for believing He cannot allow us to reject grace.”

            That doesn’t follow, for reasons already explained.

            “Since His future actions are unpredictable, He might never do what you think would be required to ensure that every single person is saved”

            On hard universalism, there are no possible worlds where people are ultimately unsaved. It doesn’t follow from unpredictability that a cause can produce any imaginable effect. It just follows that there is more than one possible effect (all of which may be good, e.g. God’s) and the cause in itself doesn’t tell you which effect obtains. This I already explained.

            “He might instead permit some to be lost because He might do some other good thing for them instead.”

            A good-not-felt-as-such is no good at all.

            I’m done arguing with you. It’s bad for my dismal mental health to argue with someone who keeps repeating the same things even after he’s been corrected. That tells me you lack charity (you giggle at the infinite pain of hell but “cry like a baby” at the finite pain of the Holocaust) and you’re not really interested in truth. It’s the most obvious thing in the world that a loving God would not permit eternal hell: it wouldn’t even be an option. I’ll see you in heaven, Father. Have a good day.

            Like

  23. Joe says:

    Fr. Rooney, disclosing your personal perspective would be helpful in putting your arguments in context. If you would be entirely forthright in answering these questions, it would be much appreciated.

    1.) Are you personally bothered by the possibility of hell? This is not to ask whether you feel that you should be bothered, but whether you are bothered.

    2.) Would you prefer to believe in (or are you at least amenable to) universal salvation if it was presented in such a way as to meet your evidentiary requirements?

    3.) Is it a possible, in theory, to meet your evidentiary requirements via logical argument?

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  24. Joe says:

    Fr Rooney, disclosing your personal perspective would be helpful in putting your arguments in context. If you would be entirely forthright in answering these questions, it would be much appreciated.

    1.) Are you personally bothered by the possibility of hell? This is not asking as to whether you feel that you should be bothered, but whether you are in fact bothered.

    2.) Would you prefer to believe in (or are you at least amenable to) universal salvation if it was presented in such a way as to meet your evidentiary requirements?

    3.) Is it a possible, in theory, to meet your evidentiary requirements via logical argument?

    Like

    • Joe says:

      Father Rooney?

      Like

    • Counter-Rebel says:

      Aesthetic preference is the ultimate decider for what we believe. In response to any argument for any position, no matter how seemingly sound, one can react by: 1. accepting it 2. suspending judgment, or 3. rejecting it. Within 3., one may think a. I don’t know how to refute this, but I think/feel/know it’s wrong, and so will wait until I or someone else can refute it, or b. I have good reasons to reject a premise.

      I wonder if “love would not allow eternal pain” is analytic or synthetic, or a priori or a posteriori.

      I’m open to criticism on this. I don’t think Fr. Rooney should be convinced by argument to become a universalist. Even if we came up with a (seemingly to him) good argument, he could always fall back on, “I should trust the Church more than argument.” If universalism is true, this route is open to the universalist as well. Even if presented with a good argument, he could fall back on, “I just know through a God-given intuition that God wouldn’t expose sentience to infinite risk, so there must be something wrong with the infernalist’s argument even if my pee brain can’t now pinpoint it.”

      If Fr. Rooney becomes a universalist, then, it shouldn’t be (solely) by argument. It should be due to God bringing him to a deeper consciousness of the intuition that infinite pain is messed up. Maybe Rooney could be the next Gregory of Nyssa, Bulgakov, Isaac of Ninevah, Isaac the Syrian.

      Does this mean arguments are pointless? Arguments in general are ultimately going to contain an element of assertion, implicit or explicit, that a person could always reject. They’re still useful for showing people where their beliefs lead them in the light of the premises.

      Like

  25. Ben Cook says:

    A quick note about one thing Stump says about the Catholic understanding of the necessary and sufficient conditions for entry into heaven:

    “The necessary and sufficient condition for entry into heaven is the will of faith, that is, a will for a will that wills the good, that loves God’s goodness and rejects its own evil.”

    This, on my understanding, is patently false. It is Catholic dogma that one can be damned to eternal conscious torment in hell simply for having (1) committed a mortal sin, and (2) dying before making it to confession and being in a state of ‘imperfect’ contrition (contrition not primarily motivated by perfect love for God above all else). It is consistent to say that a person satisfying (1) and (2) may yet have a “will of faith … a will that wills the good, that loves God’s goodness and rejects its own evil.”

    So, Stump’s characterization of the necessary and sufficient conditions for entry into heaven, from a Catholic perspective, are false. (Though I’m sure some sophism could be mustered to try to re-frame the relatively benign ‘will to will the good’ condition to be understood as ‘a will that in fact loves God above all else and is not primarily contrite due to fear of hell (imperfect contrition).’

    People like Stump and Rooney like to paint a rather more rosy picture of what Catholic doctrine teaches on this matter than it in fact does. What it does teach is truly disturbing, for we can never know with certainty what kind of contrition we have, and whether we’ll make it to that confessional booth in time.

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  26. Tom says:

    Fr Al: …God’s antecedent willing equals his consequent willing equals his eschatological willing equals his eternal willing. At the Final Judgment one of two antithetical construals of the divine love will thus be confirmed:
    Tom: I think this is one of the revisions you made. I think it’s helpful. It’s the moral argument lined up, essentially. Eschatologically the final ends desired and the penultimate means permitted really do collapse into a single final state that transparently reveals the character of the God who creates (assuming he creates ex nihilo).

    One that’s seen, then one is left to simply view the character revealed in different proposed final states. And you describe the options as two…

    Fr Al: · The divine love will be unveiled as conditional and delimited: God wills the salvation of sinners only if they repent. Love saves and love damns: “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Matt 13:49-50); or
    · The divine love will be unveiled as absolute, unqualified, illimited, comprehensive: God unconditionally wills the transfiguration of all in glorious apokatastasis. And so the prophetic words of the Apostle Paul will be fulfilled: “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15:28).

    Tom: In the 2nd paragraph, this catches my eye: “God unconditionally wills the transfiguration of all….”

    This is interesting. I don’t disagree, but I can see how “unconditionally” might be understood differently, and I’m not always sure which sense you have in mind:

    1) It could just describe the act of divine willing, that in creating God is not conditioned by anything outside himself, nor constrained by any internal compulsion, etc. He ‘wills’ unconditionally/freely.

    2) Or it might describe the free and unconstrained determination of creation’s end and the sort of necessary means and other permissions. In this sense, God is not conditioned by anything outside himself, or by any internal compulsion, in determining the ‘why’ and ‘for which end’ he creates.

    I agree that in both these senses – in act and content – God’s wills unconditionally.

    3) There is a third sense in which “unconditionally” can be brought to bear, and that is the mode in which the freely willed end is to be achieved or realized. And it’s here where there are different opinions. Some will extend the absolute unconditionality to the mode in which rational creatures realize their end. Others will argue that this is where the integrity of creaturely being and agency require us to qualify what’s meant by “unconditionally” here.

    I’m completely convinced (via the moral argument) that God’s being absolute and infinite love makes it impossible to imagine his having created includes his permitting the final loss by any of their highest well-being in God.

    But I feel as though things are stalled out over this third sense of the term ‘unconditionally’. The options seem clear, but none are finally satisfying. Universalists all have some water to bail on this question. If one is essentially a hard or soft determinist (let’s just go with that label for the moment) to get eschatological ‘closure’, there seems then to be no good answer to the question ‘What the hell has God been doing all this time if he can simply and unconditionally get what he wills antecedently?’ The world sure looks like the sort of place where things happen that God doesn’t antecedently desire; so at least in route to the end, God doesn’t seem to be compatibilistically deciding everything that happens. On the other hand if one maintains that the final end is only achieved if creaturely agency exercises some measure of deliberative ‘say-so’ (however understood), an agency God endowed us with originally precisely so that we come finally to achieve our final end, then you have no guaranteed (terminus ad quem) ‘closure’ that some feel we have to have to avoid the possibility that any will succeed in ‘going on infinitely rejecting God’.

    Have a beautiful Sunday.

    Still, a really good piece Fr Aidan. Sorry that CLJ couldn’t imagine the benefit of publishing it.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Counter-Rebel says:

      It may be that creaturely free will requires an initial period of indeterminism even if it’s compatible with determinism for a later period. One can choose the sinless path and acquire a determinans making it impossible to sin, or one can choose the sinful path and acquire a determinans making further sin impossible. Either way, the later choices are free since the determinans was the result of an early indeterministic choice. And as Bulgakov points out, both paths are equivalent for they both end in God. 😉

      It really comes down to a lack of imagination why people think libertarian free will is incompatible with hard/necessitarian universalism.

      Like

    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Tom, in the sentence ““God unconditionally wills the transfiguration of all….” what word should I substitute for “unconditionally”?

      Like

      • Tom says:

        I suppose it depends upon what senses you mean it. Is ‘unconditionally’ in your sentence an attribute of God or of rational creatures? Do you mean something like “God is unconditionally free in establishing WHAT our final end is” or “God establishes that we come to him via an unconditional mode of movement”?

        I’m asking because the two bulleted paragraphs where this occurs define the only two options we’re left with after we come to terms with the fact that God’s love and character are transparently disclosed at the ‘end’. So if by ‘unconditionally’ you mean the ‘God wills that we come to him unconditionally’ (and not ‘God unconditionally wills that we come to him’) that would leave libertarian leaning universalists like me with nowhere to land in the two bulleted options in this passage. The only way to be a universalist would be to affirm the unconditional (efficacious) mode God’s saving the damned. But that may be what you wanna say, which is fine. Your expressing the options as you encounter them. I was just seeking clarity.

        Speaking of clarity, I should say that in positing the ‘conditional’ nature of our willing surrender to God I don’t at all mean to posit (with Stump) the possibility of an irrevocable foreclose. The possibility of final loss is, for me, absolutely precluded.

        I could just be confused about the essentially conditional mode of our surrender to God. It may be that deliberative willing really is necessary for the beginning and middle game (to borrow a chess analogy) but not necessary for the end game. That looks a bit ad hoc to me, but I suppose any theory we come up with to explain an ‘end’ none of us really understands is gonna come across a bit ad hoc. I just wish I understood why the heck God would grant us a deliberative agency that has wrought such evil and filth upon the world if he could efficaciously prevent it by willing our ‘unconditional’ conformity to him.

        Consider this too. Universalists might all agree that the essential dynamics that define the end (unconditional love, judgment, grace, repentance, etc) are at work presently. St John of the Cross describes purgation in the present as ‘going down to hell alive’ and he’ll say that purgative judgment of hell isn’t just a future event. It really is that which is at work everywhere now. Hell is here now and we go thru it to the degree our our choices fashion for us.

        My point is, this makes it harder for me to understand what it is about the post-mortem context that sweeps away the presently conditional nature of our conversions. (Please, nobody try to tell me there’s nothing conditional about the present, that all our sin and evil are products of the efficacious presence of grace at work among us.) Once we stretch the dynamics of divine love and judgment out over both pre- and post-mortem contexts, on what grounds to we suppose grace achieves it ends conditionally in the former context but unconditionally in the latter?

        I suck at describing this, but I hope that helps.

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        • Tom: “It may be that deliberative willing really is necessary for the beginning and middle game (to borrow a chess analogy) but not necessary for the end game.”

          John: There are some cool quantum wave metaphors invoked in the compatabilism literature re their free will defenses. I’ve thought of combining them with chess metaphors. But … not that interested, presently.

          In my approach, I deny that efficacious grace short-circuits deliberative willing & affirm that it’s necessary protologically, historically & eschatologically.

          BUT I also own that there’s a degree of equivocation in play that underwrites that maneuver. Because I buy Wahlberg’s distinction between freedom & autonomy, I am employing a less robust notion of free deliberation. Efficacious grace, then, even if it never violates my weaker (but I believe existentially sufficient) conception of freedom, could invite us to sacrifice (via offers we wouldn’t refuse) some degree of that stronger conception, which includes autonomy (in the howness of our self-determinate soul-crafting). Something IS lost for its recipient, but only in a sacrificial sense. Too much would be lost, overall & communally, if this grace was ordinary rather than extraordinary, ubiquitous rather than exceptional.

          Further, regarding the objects of deliberation, the learning curve from it being possible (not necessary) to choose apparent over real goods must somehow yield a more richly textured, co-creative, self-determinative growth in likeness than would be afforded if our choices were only between morally equivalent goods in an eternal well being. So, this is not a process we would want to routinely short circuit, unless a higher good could be realized, sacrificially.

          ###

          Tom: “That looks a bit ad hoc to me, but I suppose any theory we come up with to explain an ‘end’ none of us really understands is gonna come across a bit ad hoc.”

          John: I often consider that I have only the tiniest inkling of what it would be like to experience the beatific vision. That grounds my mysterian appeal in a certain defensible theological skepticism. I’d bet that most of our imaginations are only processing heaven in terms of both mediated divine presencings & secondary – not primary – beatitude. My moral intuitions, aesthetic sensibilities & parental instincts are pretty much grounded there. Being unjustly deprived of my ultimate teloi remains a math abstraction. When I protest the possibility of being infinitely deprived due to finite offenses, that’s just an abstract, although intelligible, equation. Hence, perhaps, comes my focus on apokatastenai & restoration, evaluatively.
          ###

          Tom: “I just wish I understood why the heck God would grant us a deliberative agency that has wrought such evil and filth upon the world if he could efficaciously prevent it by willing our ‘unconditional’ conformity to him.”

          John: I don’t traffic in evidential theodicies (I want to believe) but, logically, there’s work to be done. It does seem to me that He doesn’t routinely thus intervene precisely because it would undermine the superabunance at stake in our maturation processes. Until we see more, certain (not all) of us could turn in our tickets without a scintilla of culpability?
          ###

          Tom: “Universalists might all agree that the essential dynamics that define the end (unconditional love, judgment, grace, repentance, etc) are at work presently. St John of the Cross describes purgation in the present as ‘going down to hell alive’ and he’ll say that purgative judgment of hell isn’t just a future event.It really is that which is at work everywhere now. Hell is here now and we go thru it to the degree our our choices fashion for us.

          My point is, this makes it harder for me to understand what it is about the post-mortem context that sweeps away the presently conditional nature of our conversions.”

          John: My approach (until further revised from being efficaciously pushed into a corner by your reliably unassailable logic) does entail that some persons’ degree of beatitude could be relatively, just not absolutely, impoverished, but in a manner & to a degree that no one would consider objectionable.

          If YOU suck, take heart, I’ve often been (justifiably) told that I haven’t successfully communicated. Praying & hoping this conveys some meaning to someone.

          Liked by 1 person

    • Tom: What the hell has God been doing all this time if he can simply and unconditionally get what he wills antecedently?

      John: It’s clear God has not been infallibly arranging every free deliberation. To the extent, though, that he has infallibly arranged some of our choices, we do still want to inquire after what might be at stake in His having accepted those risks involved in His not infallibly arranging all of our choices?

      In my approach, our post-mortem beatitudinal abundance is not at risk.

      Our peccable deliberations are ordered toward a type of superabundance that is not going to be available via our post-mortem impeccable deliberations, however. This is to accept that we may indeed be differentially established, eternally, per degrees of beatitude & might variously manifest different scopes of theophanic glory. I say this in the same sense that Phillip Cary has not objected to post-mortem “differentials” as long as one of the options is not “no grace at all!”.

      Liked by 1 person

  27. Great revision & expansion, Father.

    You, at the end wrote: “I do not know how to negotiate the differences between the universalist vision and the dogmatic commitments of the Catholic Church.”
    ###

    On the BirdApp, Fr Rooney wrote:

    Universalists are inconsistent.

    They admit God can love a person at a given time, and want/do what is best for them, even while that person is not (actively) being changed into a person that loves God back.

    If this can occur at a time, this can occur indefinitely.

    Universalists and the orthodox doctrine need not differ on the fact that God ‘never gives up’ on anyone, but only on whether that entails everyone will necessarily change.

    Yet, if God loves us while not changing us necessarily, it does not follow all necessarily change.

    ###

    John: If, indeed, Catholic doctrine does somewhere & somehow assert “that God ‘never gives up’ on anyone,” the universalist position could be negotiated?

    If, at the hour of our death, it’s theotic game-over, how has God not given up?

    If, however, at the hour of our death, we all enter purgatory, that would precisely entail that God has deemed it fitting & so will have infallibly determined that all will indeed be changed by His non-necessitating but efficacious purgative grace: 1) Our vicious secondary natures will be purged.
    2) Our original beatitude will be restored.
    3) Our capacity to epectatically realize our original teloi will be preserved.

    Liked by 1 person

    • To be clear, I grew up believing, correctly or not, that all in purgatory are impeccable & will reach heaven, there enjoying various degrees of beatitude & variously manifesting God’s glory.

      Like

    • Joe says:

      What if our “secondary nature” is exclusive to the material-biological state of being, like our flesh and bone form? Maybe the transition from secondary nature to primary nature is the transition from material body to spiritual body.

      Like

      • Because I subscribe to a view called universal hylomorphism, I draw nuanced distinctions between words like dis/embodied, im/material & in/corporeal. So those concepts work differently for me than the way you apply them above, I suspect.

        As for primary nature, in my approach, it refers to what we are as images of God. Our secondary nature refers to how we manifest our primary nature and can have both virtuous & vicious aspects. Only our viscious secondary natures require purging.

        I have often wondered, though, if purgative processes might in some ways be active & in other ways passive. The active purgation would correspond to the post-mortem processes to which we generally refer.

        How might a passive purgation work? What if some of our dispositions, i.e. those not formed synergistically, parasitic as they are, simply don’t get eternalized. Some vicious acts & habits would then be self-nihilating. Only our virtuous habits would then follow us post-mortem & enjoy eternalization.

        Whatever the case, purgation’s best conceived as a state & not a place. Mostly, it’s a pit-stop & not a destination.

        So, as with the angels, we are ever-embodied with both immaterial & material aspects, with both our primary & secondary natures, even when incorporeal. And we look forward to the new creation when we’ll be corporeal once more along more with our co-self- determined (soul-crafted) virtuous natures, which uniquely express each person’s irreplaceable & particular likeness to Christ.

        I like your “transition” instinct. Above, I just tried to interpret your intuition thru the lens of my own categories.

        Like

        • Joe says:

          “Only our virtuous habits would then follow us post-mortem & enjoy eternalization.”

          Yes, this is what I was implying.

          It’s like the old expression: “You can’t take it with you.”

          The context of this, of course, is worldly possessions, but it could be meaningfully apply to anything extrinsic to our core spiritual self; us as images of God. It obviously applies to our physical body.

          Our primary nature was originally gifted, our secondary nature was subsequently acquired—acquired, that is, in the “veiled world” of hardship, competition, and the struggle for survival.

          We acquired a material body, a “biological self” by coming into the world, and we will drop this biological self when we depart. We can’t help but drop it as it cannot survive the transition. So too, the secondary nature (closely allied with/possibly indivisible with the biological self) that we acquired only by virtue of entering into the world might be similarly dropped in that transition.

          This is all to say, that “purgation” would not happen post-transition but in, and as, the transition itself. We are rapidly and necessarily purged of our acquired form—our earthly body. So too, we may be purged of our secondary nature.

          Controversial to Christians as they may be, if we give credence to the phenomenology of the near-death experience, (granting that, empirically, the NDE is the closest we can come to the after-death state), these testimonies bear this out.

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    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Fr Rooney is the one being inconsistent, of course. He’s exploiting the universalist commitment to the unconditionality of divine love, by which we mean God’s commitment to save all, even the most wicked, and pretending that damnation does not mean what it has always meant in the Latin tradition–namely, reprobation, rejection, abandonment. This is an innovation and novelty.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Tom says:

      Thanks for this John.

      When Fr Rooney says “If this can occur at a time, this can occur indefinitely,” the word “indefinitely” grabbed me. I think (pretty sure, but I could be wrong) that either in TASBS or in conversation here, DBH say “indefinite” also expresses well the sense of aionios. Indefinite does not mean foreclosed. It just means IN-definite, and that perfectly expresses the open ended context of the soul’s encounter with a love that ‘will not give up’ on the one hand (which is why foreclosure is impossible) and a created agency that must surrender itself deliberatively to God (which is why there’s no terminus ad quem).

      Do Catholics know how rare Rooney’s ‘indefinite’ hell is? If the damned are not possibly foreclosed to God, they are irrevocably ‘open’ to Godward becoming. This has to figure into whatever one means by ‘indefinite’. It can’t mean the damned may manage to succeed at actually going on ‘forever’ rejecting God. This is necessarily not possible. One can only ever achieve a finite and IN-definite trek outside one’s final end precisely because we are irrevocably open to God. I think folks are misconstruing the ‘necessity’ that makes this the case (and which renders final foreclosure to God impossible) with a necessity given to rational creatures by which they (efficaciously) choose God. And I suppose the differences among universalists here isn’t making things easier.

      One final thought, John. I’m not sure what your “original beatitude” is in (2). I don’t see there being any such beatitude, except in the sense that creation’s origin as it comes from God is not ridden with evil. OK. But it is ‘infant’ in its origin and not in possession of its final beatitude. But I do agree that a post-mortem context will radically rearrange the furniture.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Tom: “a love that ‘will not give up’ on the one hand (which is why foreclosure is impossible) and a created agency that must surrender itself deliberatively to God (which is why there’s no terminus ad quem).”

        John: All Catholic accounts, including Báñezians & Molinists of various stripes, insist that a created agency must surrender itself deliberatively to God. Volitionally, grace remains non-necessitating.

        However in/definite vis a vis a/temporal conceptions, efficacious grace would, indeed, guarantee that agential deliberations are never interminable.
        ###

        Tom: “Do Catholics know how rare Rooney’s ‘indefinite’ hell is?”

        John: Per Catholic doctrine, hell is interminable, eternal.

        All I can reckon is that Fr. Rooney was using an ad hoc inference blocker (not something drawn from his system per se). I don’t see how he could’ve been setting any Catholic doctrine over against universalism. Rather, he must’ve been stipulating, just for argument’s sake, to premises of certain universalists, inhabiting their view only to suggest that it somehow self-subverts. My response, then, was to suggest that, at least as far as my own universalism goes, he was engaging a caricature. I hope that makes sense.
        ###

        Tom: “I think folks are misconstruing the ‘necessity’ that makes this the case (and which renders final foreclosure to God impossible) with a necessity given to rational creatures by which they (efficaciously) choose God. And I suppose the differences among universalists here isn’t making things easier.”

        John: Yep. e.g. For starters, Fr Rooney caricatures DBH & JDW by suggesting their views implicate metaphysical necessity rather than economic fittingness. Also, Catholic takes on grace properly employ nuanced distinctions between effects that are freely & infallibly fulfilled versus metaphysically necessitated.
        ###

        Tom: “I’m not sure what your ‘original beatitude’ is in (2). I don’t see there being any such beatitude, except in the sense that creation’s origin as it comes from God is not ridden with evil. OK. But it is ‘infant’ in its origin and not in possession of its final beatitude. But I do agree that a post-mortem context will radically rearrange the furniture.”

        John: D’accord. Both Maritain & I agree with you here. The Edenic state is, itself, sub-eschatological. Is that what you mean?

        I also agree that the antecedent – consequent will distinction applies historically. In my view, I don’t see where any particular in/compatibilist universalist interpretation is either obviously privileged or clearly disadvantaged in devising a logical defense for the problem of evil (what has God been doing?). Logical consistency’s a rather low hurdle but that doesn’t mean it can’t be significant, especially when ultimate concerns are in play existentially (our forced & vital options must also be “live”).

        At bottom, I don’t rely on defenses and my universalism is anti-theodicy, evidentially. I rely on God’s character as revealed in Jesus coupled with a mysterian appeal to a putative greater good as consistent with a defensible (not ad hoc) theological skepticism.

        As for logical defenses of hell, I haven’t seen one yet that’s morally intelligible. They can’t avoid invoking infinite consequences for finite choices. Analytically, that’s prima facie disproportionate & logically contradictory given almost everyone’s moral intuitions & aesthetic sensibilities (should they bother to confront them)?
        ###

        Thanks, Tom.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

          John: “All Catholic accounts, including Báñezians & Molinists of various stripes, insist that a created agency must surrender itself deliberatively to God. Volitionally, grace remains non-necessitating.”

          I have heard Catholics says this, even of the Banezian sort, but I do not understand how efficacious grace can effect deliberative self-surrender and yet be non-necessitating. How can irresistible grace be resistible and irresistible at the same time? Can you explain this to me.

          Liked by 1 person

          • This task is beyond my ken but I’ll honor your question with my best shot. There are several ways many others have tried to explain it, as you know. People are variously persuaded or not. No way can wholly avoid a mysterian retreat so all must aspire to consistency and admit incompleteness. No way is uncontroversial.

            Still, here goes:

            First, allow me an oversimplification. To me, efficacious grace works because God knows, presently, when a grace will – or re futuribles, would – be efficacious. It’s extrinsic & based on a congruity between infallibly known or knowable circumstances & how they’d inform one’s deliberative processes. It’s a divine calculation: If I do this, given her circumstances, I know she’ll freely respond like that.

            For intrinsic accounts, a lot more heavy lifting is required. But, as an oversimplification, the divine calculation might be: He’s in skydiving school & wearing a parachute that will open automatically. While he lacks the courage to jump and, while with my shove and gravity’s pull he won’t be able to physically resist falling, he will freely consent to his glorious “free-fall.” God pushes her out the plane and it’s the best experience of her life.

            While I don’t a priori dismiss the possibility of an intrinsically efficacious grace, if there even is such a thing, it would only be used extraordinarily in exceptional circumstances is my belief. Even extrinsic gracing is extraordinary, just less rare, I ‘d guess. This is just me speculating.

            While extrinsic grace does make some sense to me, it seems to generate as many theoanthropo- problems as it solves. It can, in some versions, make the sufficient grace distinction meaningless.

            After those feeble attempts, let me say that one of the best overviews in general in terms of clarity & accessibility can be found in Father John A. Hardon, S.J. ‘s Course on Grace, Part Two – B, Grace Considered Intensively, Chapter XIII, Sanctifying Grace and the Indwelling Trinity.

            Access it at the link, below, & search for “non-necessitating” to zero in on the relevant discussion:

            http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Grace/Grace_004.htm

            For those inclined to intrinsic accounts of efficacious grace, to Báñezian & neo-Báñezian approaches, the recent exchange in Nova et Vetera between Professor O’Neill & Fr Rooney is very illuminating (only after 3 or 4 reads for me).

            This Exchange –
            A Báñezian Grounding for Counterfactuals of Creaturely Freedom: A Response to James Dominic Rooney, O.P – Taylor Patrick O’Neill
            From Báñez with Love: A Response to a Response by Taylor Patrick O’Neill – James Dominic Rooney, O.P. – can be accessed here:

            https://stpaulcenter.com/product/nova-et-vetera-spring-2023-vol-21-no-2/

            I’m more inclined to a Congruist take which is a mitigated Molinism. However, as I’m also deeply sympathetic to Tom Belt’s Open intuitions, mine is even a further mitigated Congruism, where efficacious grace needn’t necessarily rely on divine knowledge of exhaustively known futuribles or even a rigorous middle knowledge. It would suffice that God can infallibly deal with each pending move & its consequences as it presents in the eternal now of any given divine chess match. It would not be necessary for God to know from the cosmic get-go every move & related counterfactual to be made by every rational creature in the eternal chess match. God knows THAT His decree will be fulfilled & “mostly” – but not necesarily exclusively – leaves the HOW to us.

            So, I incline to view efficacious grace as mostly, even if not exclusively, extrinsic (ab extrinseco), adapted to the nature & circumstances of the recipient (God’s knowledge of one’s maturity level, affective dispositions, cultural milieu, etc). Based on those circumstances, God infallibly knows how we will respond. An even further mitigated Molinism would say God knows how we “would” respond even though we “could” respond differently.

            What causes Báñezians, Molinists, Congruists & Open Theists to tie themselves up into free will – determinist pretzels are often problems precisely arising from defending perdition & reprobation. Universalists who a priori reject those possibilities and, therefore, only have to defend an abundance vs superabundance dichotomy, can afford to be more eclectic & syncretistic by embracing the strongest & eschewing the weakest features of each approach. Such eclectic & syncretistic approaches would need much less conceptual rigor because the choices in play and stakes at risk are easier to defend, i.e. different degrees of beatitude rather than grace vs no grace at all. For example, perditionists are navigating questions like, to the extent any realities are foreseen, like de/merits, is reprobation/predestination after/before foreseen merits? Universalists can “relax” and focus on the logical problem of evil without those added perceived injustices. [tongue firmly in cheek]

            Fr Pohle critiques all the approaches: intrinsic, extrinsic, congruist, syncretistic:

            https://biblehub.com/library/pohle/grace_actual_and_habitual/section_2_theological_systems_devised.htm

            That about covers several centuries re one of theology’s most vexxing problems. Anyone who fully grasped what I was saying may not have been paying sufficient attention.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Tom says:

            Fr Al: I have heard Catholics says this, even of the Banezian sort, but I do not understand how efficacious grace can effect deliberative self-surrender and yet be non-necessitating. How can irresistible grace be resistible and irresistible at the same time? Can you explain this to me?

            Tom: You’re asking John, so I apologize for jumping in. But I just wanted to say that I share your suspicion here. I don’t see how grace irresistibly secures our consent and that consent also be deliberatively arrived at. But if I understand John, he’s saying this about Catholics traditionally. For example, Stump would agree that this is why universalism fails, because God determines creaturely consent which must come to God deliberatively. I think John personally agrees with you, Fr Al, that in the end grace does efficaciously secure the consent of the damned in converting them irresistibly (i.e., non-deliberatively). But maybe I’m misunderstanding John.

            My question is for you efficacious grace folk. On the one hand, we may suppose divine action to be so transcendent of the creature that irresistible grace and deliberation are absolutely convergent (and non-competitive, obviously), i.e., grace irresistibly moves the creature through the deliberative process, precisely along the desired lines, and ending up concluding self-surrender. The other approach might be to suppose grace simply produces in us the final consent without so much as a process in us that even simulates deliberation. We don’t deliberate, or even think we’re deliberating, we just find or discover ourselves seeing God clearly and loving him unfailingly with no history of having moved deliberatively from A to B.

            I’ve understood all the efficacious grace universalists as supposing something like the 2nd of these two accounts. Am I misreading ya’ll?

            Liked by 1 person

          • Tom, thanks for jumping in! I responded to Fr Al last evening but my post is in a moderation queue as I’ve provided 3 hyperlinks, which I hope will be useful to those who want to better understand the Roman Catholic approaches to this question.

            I’ll respond directly to you later but, for now, here’s a teaser in the form of an erratum to my original response to Fr Al:

            I wrote: While EXTRINSIC grace does make some sense to me, it seems to generate as many theoanthropo- problems as it solves.

            As all good Jesuits know, I should have written: While INTRINSIC grace does make some sense to me, it seems to generate as many theoanthropo- problems as it solves.

            Like

          • Tom: “I don’t see how grace irresistibly secures our consent and that consent also be deliberatively arrived at. But if I understand John, he’s saying this about Catholics traditionally.”

            John: Yes, as I understand it, all Catholics, including me, believe that grace is non-necessitating. Because Catholics hold that our intellect & will are inseparably operative in volition, we believe that freedom’s not innate to the will. Rather, freedom is only ever the fruit of the will & the mind in collaboration. At least, this is what I mean by deliberative.

            THAT our consent can be both efficaciously secured & deliberatively delivered is our Catholic position.

            All bets are off, though, as to securing a consensus or persuading all sincere inquirers as to HOW our consent can be both efficaciously secured & deliberatively delivered.

            Entering stage left are the Báñezians (e.g. Prof O’Neill, I believe? & many Dominicans) with intrinsic accounts of efficacious grace. Entering stage right are the Molinists (many Jesuits) with extrinsic accounts. At center stage are the Congruists, Molinists who give a nod to the Thomists. Also near center stage are various Syncretists. Elsewhere, with very highly nuanced stances are neo-Báñezians (e.g. Rev Dr Rooney). Nowhere on the Roman Catholic stage are Calvinists, who bite the bullet & claim that efficacious grace is necessitating, i.e. thoroughgoingly irresistable , yet still in a way not repugnant to free will.

            So, when I saw Fr Al’s question inquiring about HOW I explain it, my initial visceral response was comment-box dread, because my Roman Catholic approach, as I’d self-describe it, is both syncretistic & eclectic.

            It’s syncretistic insofar as I find elements in the stances of all my co-religionists that are congenial to my (idiosyncratic) brand of universalism. It’s also eclectic because I embrace a nuanced Open Theism (cf. Tom Belt) that’s consistent with a thin divine passibility (cf. Fr. N. Clarke).

            My eclecticism basically acknowledges that our Catholic stances aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. Sometimes grace can be: intrinsic, sometimes – extrinsic; sufficient or efficacious. God needn’t exhaustively know the future of nature because He eternally knows via Logos & logoi the nature of the future (and that it doesn’t include interminable perdition & reprobation).
            ###

            Tom: “John personally agrees with you, Fr Al, that in the end grace does efficaciously secure the consent of the damned in converting them irresistibly (i.e., non-deliberatively). But maybe I’m misunderstanding John.”

            John: That would be a misunderstanding. That devolves, in my view, into Calvinism. From everything I’ve ever read in dialogues between, for example, Fr Al, DBH & Robert F., all of them hold to a robustly non-voluntarist understanding of freedom’s relation to the will.
            ###

            Tom: “My question is for you efficacious grace folk. On the one hand, we may suppose divine action to be so transcendent of the creature that irresistible grace and deliberation are absolutely convergent (and non-competitive, obviously), i.e., grace irresistibly moves the creature through the deliberative process, precisely along the desired lines, and ending up concluding self-surrender.

            The other approach might be to suppose grace simply produces in us the final consent without so much as a process in us that even simulates deliberation. We don’t deliberate, or even think we’re deliberating, we just find or discover ourselves seeing God clearly and loving him unfailingly with no history of having moved deliberatively from A to B.
            I’ve understood all the efficacious grace universalists as supposing something like the 2nd of these two accounts. Am I misreading ya’ll?”

            John: I’m not sure that my categories can suitably address your question in my framework, where, by deliberation, I’m thinking of volition in terms of the inseparability of will & intellect and how we only ever experience freedom when they’re collaborative.

            Maybe another Thomistic distinction is in play, though, in your example. The intellect can operate in both active & passive modes. Divine presencing can be both mediated & immediate. Immediate divine presencing can be both transitory or everlasting. Both mediated & immediate divine presencings can vary in both ways & degrees.

            Given those distinctions, let’s consider an “extreme” gracing, the Beatific Vision, as it might be most illustrative. It is immediate & everlasting and involves an intellectual comprehension not entirely dissimilar to an “Aha!” moment. This encounter of God involves knowledges from our operative possessions of knowledge of the Other (love knows love) as well as from our direct or sudden intuitions. This grace gifts our “passive” intellect.

            Perhaps this comports, via the “passive” construct, somewhat with the distinctions drawn in your first approach above? Maybe our definitions of deliberative don’t map? But, in no case, could freedom ever be realized in volition sans our intellects.

            While an immediate presencing would certainly be experienced differently, psychologically, than our mediated encounters, it will no less involve the collaboration of the intellect & will. Indeed, this is why impeccability & inancaritability are not in the least repugnant to, but rather most exemplary of, our freedom.

            It gets FAR more involved than these active & passive distinctions. My own moderately libertarian stance is informed by Eleonore Stump & Duns Scotus, especially regarding when & how different gracings operate via efficient vs formal causes, via the will or intellect, actively or passively, via quiescence (in a state that’s abstaining from judgement), etc
            ###

            I hope this clarifies more than muddles! Oremus.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Tom says:

            John: THAT our consent can be both efficaciously secured & deliberatively delivered is our Catholic position.

            Tom: Learn something new every day! I guess someone should let Stump know this. She seems to believe otherwise.

            Like

          • LOL! Well, she thus apires, anyway. Her account of quiesence doesn’t leave out the operations of our deliberative intellect but, rather, derives from a divided deliberation.

            As with many such attempts, there’s much disagreement as to whether her libertarian approach successfully avoids Pelagian or semi-Pelagian pitfalls. Some of the best work in modifying her account has been done by her students.

            Rev Dr Rooney has a great treatment called “Stumping Freedom.”

            Changing the subject a bit, when reading Calvinist theodicies treating the problem of evil, a LOT of the rhetoric & imaginary storytelling defenses sounds MUCH like the logical defenses of hell by my co-religionists. Viscerally, reading it is, for me, revolting. Single vs double predestination collapses into a practical distinction without a moral difference, at least as per your & my moral intuitions. Your quip – I guess someone should let ______ know – made me recall that.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Tom says:

            To John: I said so little in that first reply. I’ll try to get back to ya later. As always, so much food for thought. Thanks.

            To Fr Al: Yes, that helps. I mean, that’s my own view at present.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Present preoccupations are preventing me from being able to keep up, but …

            Apart from whether or not I or anyone else pulls off a plausible account of the deliberative aspect of efficacious gracing, I know that even a mere stipulation to our argument raises a certain brand of theodicy concerns, which I’ve addressed in part. I’ve addended my latest compilation “Nature, Grace & Universalism – one Catholic perspective,” with a section called “A Logical Defense of Efficacious Gracing,” which might address that particular focus of yours.

            I’m off to continue my back-breaking, heat-exhausting, grass planting chores.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

            To Tom: Consider Tom Talbott’s model of rational freedom, as adapted by Kronen & Reitan. They see efficacious grace as eliminating the obstacles to true freedom, thus allowing the individual to freely engage their rational freedom and thus apprehend, either deliberatively or immediately (intuitively) the Good. Does that meet your concerns?

            Kronen & Reitan: The Argument from Efficacious Grace

            Liked by 2 people

          • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

            Thanks, John, for both you reply to me and the elaboration to Tom.

            I’d like to recommend (for very selfish reasons) this book by Matthews Grant: Free Will and Divine Causality. I’d be very interested what you think about his notion of concurrent grace.

            https://amzn.to/46CsZQW

            Liked by 1 person

          • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

            John: “THAT our consent can be both efficaciously secured & deliberatively delivered is our Catholic position.”

            John, as I’m sure you will agree, your Catholic position is not THE Catholic view, though it certainly has its proponents. Clearly Stump has a limited view of operative grace. I have no idea what Rooney believes, though I think I recall him saying, perhaps on Twitter, that he does not believe in efficacious grace (though I wouldn’t be surprised if I misunderstood him–his real views are difficult to pin down; I no doubt need to reread his piece “Stumping Stump,” as well as his review of O’Neill). Certainly among contemporary Catholic theologians, there are many who appear to affirm a purely sufficient grace, which comes to the fore in their defense of eternal damnation and their reluctance to affirm an Augustinian-Thomistic construal of absolute predestination. The popular Catholic invocation of the free-will defense of hell requires this, I would think. I’m thinking, e.g., of Joshua Brotherton, who has written numerous articles on eschatology and advanced critique of Balthasar’s hopeful universalism (I’m going here on fallible memory–it’s been a while since I last read him). But I agree with you that the Council of Trent affirms the resistibility of efficacious grace (Rooney and O’Neill agree on this). Trent therefore may be understood as implicitly rejecting Augustine’s views. Augustine clearly teaches that by the Spirit God changes an evil will into a righteous will. Calvinists are simply following Augustine on this point. I suspect that theologians like Stump and others, on the other hand, read Trent along strong libertarian-synergistic lines. Theirs is no doubt a legitimate Catholic interpretation.

            I confess that I find this notion of resistible efficacious grace incomprehensible, though your suggestion that grace does not work upon the will directly seems to make the best sense of the position. If efficacious grace infallibly brings about faith and repentance, then how can it be truly resistible? I don’t get it. To me, it seems a semantic game. And the voluntarism of Duns Scotus still has its adherents among Catholics. What I don’t know is how that informs their understanding of grace.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Tom says:

            What Fr Al said. Yeah!

            Is this a good place to say I’m 90% through all the Naruto (Japanese anime series) episodes?

            Liked by 1 person

          • Right. Not all Catholics interpret predestination similarly. What I meant to assert was more modest, THE Catholic stance is that all grace, however variously approached, is non-necessitating in the sense that such freedom is necessarily the fruit of the collaboration of the will & intellect.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Fr Kimel: “John, as I’m sure you will agree, your Catholic position is not THE Catholic view, though it certainly has its proponents.”

            John: Oh, totally. I should have been more clear. My claim is more modest than that: Any Catholic account of grace should consider it non-necessitating, where such freedom is the fruit of the collaboration of the will & intellect.

            So, when I wrote —  “THAT our consent can be both efficaciously secured & deliberatively delivered is our Catholic position” — I should have said that, however our consent is secured, it will be deliberatively delivered, i.e. as a fruit of the collaboration of the will & intellect.

            So, d’accord on your rundown of various libertarian takes. As a syncretist, I’ve drawn valuable insights from all of their contributions.

            I’m no theologian. I may be wrong there. If so, I’ll just have to be more scandalized than I already am.
            ###

            Fr. Kimel: “I confess that I find this notion of resistible efficacious grace incomprehensible, though your suggestion that grace does not work upon the will directly seems to make the best sense of the position. If efficacious grace infallibly brings about faith and repentance, then how can it be truly resistible?”
            John: The most important take-away is that our free consent always involves the collaboration of both the will & intellect. On an extrinsic account, it’s really just saying that, God knows enough about any given person to know how their will would respond if He places thus & such before their intellect (broadly conceived, so including especially operative, but also gnoseological,  knowledge). Re: intrinsic accounts, I’ve listened to Prof O’Neill and found some of his illustrations plausible.
            It’s not merely semantics. The concepts involved are rigorously defined & the dynamics highly nuanced. Vague,  popularized conceptions, like ir/resistable, can’t do justice to the reality.

            At the same time, I hope none of us totally “get it,” because, by definition, there’s an inscrutable depth dimension that’s unavoidably incomprehensible. My claim is only that I find a modicum of intelligibility in the competing accounts. As imagoes Dei, if our freedom was so simple that we could comprehend it, we would be too simple to grasp it.
            ###

            Fr. Kimel: “And the voluntarism of Duns Scotus still has its adherents among Catholics. What I don’t know is how that informs their understanding of grace.”

            John: Count me in! I’ve found certain resonances between  Scotus & Stump which have helped my inchoate grasp of it all. A most compelling account of Scotus’ “moderate” voluntarism was given by Benedict XVI’s in his general audience of July 7, 2010, entitled “John Duns Scotus.”

            What’s key is that in/compatibilsms & libertarianisms, in order to be orthodox, have to be “moderate” in affirming the adequacy of our freedom & sovereignty of our Lover. It’s quite the conceptual needle to thread!

            A Great Amen to the succinct Talbot adaptation by Kronen & Reitan. That’s not at all inconsistent, istm, with my extrinsic account of efficacious grace. Although, as I said elsewhere, that wouldn’t be an exhaustive account for a syncretist like me.
            ###

            Like

  28. Tom says:

    A while back I got onto Youtube enjoying some music. Mostly Bach. I stumbled into some opera (which I enjoy very much). It happened to be Pavarotti’s “Nessun Dorma” (link below). Everybody knows Pav, or so I thought.

    Along the Youtube feed on the side, I saw several ‘Response’ videos to Pav’s performance by professional vocalists. They’re OK. But there were also response videos by people who had never heard Pavarotti, or any opera for that matter. So I started checking those out. Some of them moved me to tears – seeing people attend to this performance not knowing what was going to hit them, and being overwhelmed. You can see how the power of beauty overwhelms them as they discover something in them reaching out to what they hear. When they’re not ready for it, it can be emotionally.

    Here’s one such link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ5ocxBjug4

    (Sidenote on the title of this video: ‘Black Reactors First Time Listening To Luciano Pavarotti Singing Nessun Dorma’. I was very bothered by their specifying ‘Black’ reactions, as if there aren’t White folk who don’t know Pavarotti and who would be blown away; I mean, what’s they’re being ‘Black’ have to do with what they’re experiencing – anyhow….)

    So here’s my question (which I hope is relevant to the debate re: the ‘deliberative’ agency of the damned in the eschaton). As I observe the responses to people in this video, I started to make connection to the beatific vision, and I thought, “OK, these people having these amazing encounters with the power of this beauty, are any of them free to respond by saying, ‘Ew, how disgusting’ or ‘I can’t see anything in it that’s attractive, yuck’?” And it was clear to me that the answer was ‘no’. They’re not ‘free’ (in any meaningful sense) to respond in any other way than they respond. Beauty touched their natural desire and called it out. They didn’t deliberate in any obvious sense. They didn’t analyze the sounds waves of his voice in a spectrogram to ‘analyze’ it or process their response in terms of a logical QED or list of premises followed by ‘consent to God’ as the conclusion. It’s not that kind of encounter. And there is no obvious violation of the integrity of their agency or identity or faculties.

    This begs the question: Does being overwhelmed by beauty in this way, in a manner that leaves the analytic and consciously deliberative reasoning on the bench, make one less truly or uniquely a ‘person’? Obviously not. And so I ask myself this same question regarding the encounter of the damned with whatever depth or scope of light and revelation they encounter.

    Lots of other questions crowded in. But perhaps we should admit that lots of people will listen to Nessun Dorma (or hear or see any other stunning acts of beauty, the sun rising in Yosemite, etc.) and not see or hear what others see or hear. I can name some such people (all of them politicians – the one vocation that deadens the aesthetic appetite and natural desire for God like nothing else). One of them has orange hair. This former President looked at the beautiful untamed rolling hills of a pristine landscape and could only see the money he’d make by building a resort on it. A lumberjack looks at a beautiful forest and sees dollars.

    We can and do stunt and pervert our tastebuds and sear our conscience (and our consciousnesses). Some people really don’t like delicious food. They’ve taught themselves to eat and like crap. Put Lebanese cuisine in front of them and they’ll gag. Give them roadkill and they’ll dive in.

    So we shouldn’t assume that everybody who hears Pavarotti sing Nessun Dorma will respond with the humbling consent of the self to beauty’s call and gift. The people who responded that way made choices in life to become the sort of people who nurtured their own inner aesthetic taste. So the vision of it humbled them. Others who prostitute their capacities to the false and the filthy will not respond that way.

    But they can be redeemed and come home to their natural desire for truth, beauty, goodness, etc. The whole question for me is: How does that return occur? On the efficacious/irresistible side are those who wanna say, “Well, Trump just awakens in the Resurrection and – poof – finds himself already remade and fully awaken to the good, the true, the beautiful.” This strikes me as unimaginable, and for reasons I suck at explaining, somehow a denial of beauty’s call and gift. It’s more like a lobotomy. Die a Hitler and rise a St. Frances with no awareness or participation in the transition, the miracle of conversion. Now, I also can’t imagine a sane person whose aesthetic appetite is free from the perversion of taste and insight that a sinful life inclines one to, just up and deciding, “Hell nah. That’s not beautiful.” Hell is eschatological judgment, not a return to the ambiguities of Eden.

    So on the one hand, I totally agree with the irresistible folk that there is a revelation of divine beauty which, when seen, is irresistible, just like those people in the video who when first hearing Pavarotti’s voice were immediately broken open to love. But on the other hand I disagree that the inclinations of a warped aesthetic appetite which are able to experience Pavarotti this way can simply be ‘determined away’ (however uncompetitively) without any participation of the ‘will’ in ‘coming to see’, and in coming to see, own (i.e., repent) and yield.

    And so I think one has to own the process, either way. If one develops one’s faculties in some perverted, privated manner, this has to be at least ‘seen’ and brought into view relative to the beauty at hand. One has to see oneself (what one has become or made of oneself) in light of the beauty at hand and so ‘intend’ oneself in an act of repentance for the beauty and not the false. And of course we are not left to our own devices. Grace will (irresistibly, yes) heal the mind of debilitating wounds, traumas, and ignorance so that one is ‘freed to intend’ oneself to the beauty of being. But to simply rise from the dead and discover oneself already fully made over? Really? No repentant embrace of one’s history before the grace ‘which forgives’?

    ————–

    Confession time. 3 yrs ago my life changed forever. I lost things (and people) during Covid that broke me absolutely. Friends (professionals) recommended psilocybin (mushrooms) to help me engage the process. I planned a mushroom trip and launched my battered soul into the unknown. Oh well. Judge me if you need to.

    I’ll say this. I was overwhelmed by a vision of, and a sense of being present in, the world that was beautiful beyond description. The sense of belonging and graciousness in all things was more than I can describe. I could not imagine willing harm or violence in such a state, though my agency was completely intact. I knew where and when I was. I knew I was in an altered state of mind. But how the world presented itself to me was – I can’t even say. If you have strong opinions against such treatment, good for you. You can go read another post.

    I knew I had skeletons in my closet. I had junk to own. And I did so intentionally, but within an embrace of belonging and connection to the loving goodness of all things which I could not deny. The irresistible aspect was the undeniable beauty and goodness of the world in its embrace of me. I could not imagine myself outside this embrace. The deliberative aspect was the undeniable (and yes, somewhat precarious, because ‘unknown’) acknowledgment of the loss and trauma that brought me there. People don’t want their trauma or abuse just ‘erased’. They want it seen and recognized and thus healed. Redemption is not ‘erasure’, it’s ‘healing’ through the acknowledge presence of Christ in the moment, at the scene of the crime.

    I’ll end my confessed trip with this: the only pain present during these experiences was the pain of regret at not having not realized how indescribably beautiful the world, others, and I were, how little my happiness depended upon the crap I thought it depended upon, and how the way forward was always at hand, more intimately available than my own breath. This realization was a kind of torture, a beautiful torture that I was became thankful for in no time at all, though I chose it.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Joe says:

      That was beautiful, Tom! Thank you so much for sharing.

      You’ve described elements of the quintessential mystical experience.

      I’m currently reading Sacred Knowledge: Psychedelics and Religious Experiences. I strongly recommend it, especially in light of this healing awakening experience:

      Liked by 1 person

      • Tom says:

        Thanks Joe. I’m sure the use of psychedelics will remain controversial, and that’s OK.

        It’s been a couple years and this is the first time I’ve shared it publicly, but I don’t consider the philosophical questions re: choice/agency, necessity, etc., without reference to those (two) experiences I had.

        Like

        • Joe says:

          I do think that psychedelic occasioned mystical experiences do tend to carry more of the theme of consciously “working through” one’s trauma, albeit against the backdrop of ineffable love, acceptance, and compassion. It might be a feature of the pharmacology of the substances or a result of entering that space with a particular intention, which is often the case with psychedelics.

          This can happen with near-death experience, in the form of the life-review,” where one undergoes self-judgement for their shortcomings in life and experiences the consequences of their behavior from the perspective of everyone they ever interacted with. Interestingly, this doesn’t happen with all NDEs and, when it does, this whole process is described as being instantaneous.

          The third type of experience—spontaneous mystical experience (think here of R.M. Bucke’s paradigmatic experience of “cosmic consciousness”)— do not contain such content. There are no longer any problems at all, much less trauma to be laboriously worked out, and agency (to either resist or assent) utterly disappears. The common refrain is that one is entirely “taken over,” “invaded” or “consumed” with an unstoppable flood of joy, bliss, and knowledge. Whether or not one finds these experiences philosophically distasteful, the literature is replete with examples.

          So what do we make of this?

          Like

          • Tom says:

            Thanks Joe. Always good stuff to think about and process.

            I’m not sure what to make of that third type you describe. I’ve no means or categories by which to understand it as mode in which God relates to us.

            Like

    • This is a gift. Amazing!

      Tom, foremost, let me thank you for the generosity of your personal sharing as combined with the depth of your theo-anthropo vision.

      Honestly, I felt like I was rereading MacDonald’s Lilith, Ch 39, That Night!

      https://www.gutenberg%5BDOT%5Dorg/cache/epub/1640/pg1640-images.html#link2HCH0039

      Your insights so resonated with MacDonald’s and your vision of how purgative graces would ordinarily operate would seem to match his account of the rather “TOLLSOME” processes of eschatological judgment, which mature us for divine communion by purifying & healing us. In fact it matches my Catholic understanding of purgatory as – neither spatial nor temporal, but – a personal divine presence that’s blessedly painful.

      Per my view, under any Catholic account of non-necessitating grace, purgation never involves either a voltional short-circuiting of the integral collaboration of will & intellect or an evasion of soul-maturation processes, although it very much could involve various rates of acceleration in one’s degree of volitional illumination & one’s level of soul-crafting maturation.

      As you know, I also believe there’s a superabundant scope of theophanies & range of beatitudes that only our antemortem peccable soul-crafting can deliver, which goes over & beyond what our impeccable post-mortem soul-crafting can attain, although still abundantly so. It’s a loss to be mourned purgatively in terms of missed opportunities, beginning in imperfect contrition, possibly culminating in perfect contrition.

      In my view, ultimately, through various ways & extents of divine presencing, tailored for each imago Dei, our vicious natures will be purged with no character-based contingencies barring the way. In this “intermediate state,” it seems to me that even a more intense mediated (not immediate) divine presence could effect our transformation. To the extent it would involve an immediate presence, though, it seems to me that that presencing could be transitory (such as in our death processes, maybe a Damascene-like vision) & still efficacious.
      I say that for several reasons:
      1) That purgative state’s not the beatific vision, which is an immediate presence.
      2) I have no concrete earthly idea what the beatific vision entails psychologically, anyway.
      3) I’m, ergo, viscerally attuned to being satisfied by the “mere” thought of enjoying ongoing mediated presencings & secondary beatitudes in an environs of eternal well being. Faith still operating.
      4) As long as our capacity for our primary beatitude’s never foreclosed on, I don’t find it morally repugnant to imagine that, for some, it’s realization could be stalled in some virtually interminable way.

      On the whole, I’m fully on board with a syncretistic take of Catholic accounts of grace, efficacious & sufficient, extrinsic & intrinsic. And I feel I have an inchoate grasp of how they can work, i.e. somewhat intelligible even though not fully comprehensible. I’m even a subjunctive universalist re the apokatastasis of the beatific vision (although virtually indicative). I’m only an indicative universalist re the other 2 Maximian apokatastes – eternal life & a Maratainian apokatastenai. I just adamantly reject any notion that our ultimate teloi can ever be permanently foreclosed on & especially at the moment of death.

      Some perditionists seem to be straining in my direction with their affirmation of a limited array of post-mortem beatitudes to be enjoyed universally, even by the damned. Whatever it is that fuels their impulse to abandon ECT, I pray some find enough in their tank to drive their logic all the way to your Maximian irrevocability thesis.

      Thanks, brother, for journeying with me.

      Liked by 2 people

  29. Fr Aidan Kimel says:

    To John Sylvest:

    Yesterday I asked a Catholic theologian friend who knows Aquinas well to explain to me the Thomist understanding of resistible infallible grace. He gave me the following explanation:

    It does, because no created reality is per se irresistible, and in the Thomist account, grace is a created reality. But the key point is that just because something intrinsically is resistible didn’t mean it *will* be resisted.

    If God is the ultimate explanation for all that is, then God is the ultimate explanation for why I chose x over y. My own choosing itself is not the ultimate explanation, for that choosing is in potency to being actualized until it is actualized, and God is the unactualized actualizer. And so to deny that grace to choose x can be per se resistible but infallibly certain is to put choices outside of God’s creative purview. But to make the choice not contingent but metaphysically necessary is to turn it from a created reality into God. And so the Thomist account of resistible but infallible grace makes sense.

    Note that my friend’s explanation depends on the scholastic notion of created grace: if grace is created, it must be resistible because only God himself is irresistible. I then asked him, What about uncreated grace? His reply: Don’t muddy the waters! 😁 And of course he’s right, since it wasn’t until the 20th century that Thomists began to give uncreated grace its due.

    Thoughts?

    Liked by 2 people

    • That’s a great answer! Only surpassed in greatness by your follow-up question!

      I started Matthews Grant’s Free Will and Divine Causality and my initial response was to put it down and write this: https://syncretisticcatholicism.wordpress.com/2023/07/13/lookin-for-hell-in-all-the-wrong-places-lookin-for-hell-in-too-many-faces/

      I don’t really have a dog in the hunt regarding competing Catholic stances toward the relationship between nature, grace & freedom vis a vis universalism because I sincerely believe that our universalism is foundationally grounded in our beliefs about God’s loving nature & how that informs what’s divinely fitting economically. Once one gets those proto- & eschato-logical priors in place, every Catholically kosher version of nature, grace & freedom can be consistently & coherently tweaked to accommodate universalism.

      Like

    • Tom says:

      Anybody ever watch Mystery Science Theatre 3000? It was a TV show (created by some guys in Minnesota) that found the worst films ever made and re-aired them. But across the bottom of your TV screen you’d see a silhouetted row of empty theater chairs so it was like you were in a theater watching the film. The host (silhouetted) would walk in from the side as the move started. He came in with two small robots whose sat left and right of him. They’d watch the film with you and the whole time they’d mecilessly make fun of the movie. Hilarious.

      Reading this description of divine grace and its corresponding relation to an eternal hell is interesting the way sitting in a Mystery Science Theater episode watching a very badly made film is interesting. Like peering into another world that I couldn’t imagine possibly being in.

      How could the grace of the uncreated God be created? What’s it even mean to speak of God’s grace as a kind of substance at all (created or uncreated) when it is nothing other than God himself acting in love to secure our highest good in him? God *is* his own grace, his own loving act which creates, seeks, draws, lures, wins, etc. What’s it even mean to extract grace from God and speak of the former as created and the latter as uncreated?

      I must be missing something here. They can’t possibly believe this. Wouldn’t they also have to say this about God’s love, i.e., that since we are capable of utterly and finally rejecting God’s love, that love must be created? So, since we are not capable of resisting God but we do resist his love, grace, and his goodness, God cannot *be* his love, grace, and goodness?

      Am I getting this right?

      Liked by 1 person

      • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

        Tom, check out this article on Aquinas and created grace: https://philarchive.org/archive/POLTAO-12

        Liked by 1 person

        • Tom says:

          Will I need uncreated or created grace to read and understand it?

          Liked by 1 person

          • Tom says:

            I’ll take a look at it soon. I’ve look at the distinction in a few sources. I’m not hearing it here for the first time. I just meant to say that I can make no sense of what they who speak of ‘created’ grace say in favor of that label.

            Liked by 1 person

      • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

        Tom, back in 2006, summarizing the exposition of Charles Cardinal Journet (The Meaning of Grace), I wrote:

        “The primary and foundational meaning of grace within Catholic doctrine is uncreated grace, the self-donation of God himself: in infinite love God gives himself to human beings and comes to dwell within them. This gift of uncreated grace, of indwelling deity, requires the transformation of the soul, however. The finite human being must be made capable of receiving the indwelling presence of the infinite Creator. By grace our nature must be elevated and brought into a new supernatural life; by grace we must be endowed with a capacity that we do not presently possess—the capacity to participate in the divine life of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This new capacity is created grace. ‘Created grace,’ Journet explains, “is a reality, a quality, a light that enables the soul to receive worthily the indwelling of the three divine Persons’ (p. 7). Moreover, this quality is not temporary or occasional but is permanent or habitual: it is ‘an endowment we possess continuously and which is the source in us of activity. The divine action, when it takes hold of me—say that I am in the state of sin—and if I open myself to it, places me in the state of grace, that is to say in a stable condition of grace. If I sleep, I am still in the state of grace; when I wake up, I make an act of faith or love in virtue of this permanent root which remains in me ready to act’” (pp. 10-11).

        And here’s another quotation from Journet:

        “The indwelling of the divine Persons is, then, always the accompaniment of grace. The two mysteries are co-relative. Grace is like a net we throw over the Trinity to hold it in captivity. Or here is another way to visualize it: when you bring into a room a source of light, it illuminates the walls; so, when the divine Persons come to us (here we have the source, uncreated grace), the illuminate the walls of the soul (here we have the effect, created grace). And if you possess grace, then the source of grace, the three divine Persons, is there too. In the very gift of sanctifying grace, says St Thomas, the Holy Spirit himself is sent and given to man to dwell in him. The uncreated Spirit is given in created grace, as the sun is given in its rays. The uncreated Gift of the Spirit and the created gift of grace are simultaneous. There are differences of degree in the life of individual souls; but in each of them the intensity of grace and the intensity of the indwelling increase with the same movement…. It is necessary to insist on the reciprocal relation between the finite gift of grace and the infinite gift of indwelling. This view is alone capable of bring out the full dimensions of grace. Our catechism speaks of sanctifying grace, but scarcely at all of the fact of indwelling, which is of greater value, being the source of which grace is the effect” (pp. 14, 16).

        Maybe that helps a little bit. Created grace is the addition and modification that uncreated grace makes upon the recipient. The Spirit does not just inhabit us; it changes us and makes us graced beings.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Journet: The finite human being must be made capable of receiving the indwelling presence of the infinite Creator. By grace our nature must be elevated and brought into a new supernatural life; by grace we must be endowed with a capacity that we do not presently possess—the capacity to participate in the divine life of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This new capacity is created grace. ‘Created grace,’ Journet explains, “is a reality, a quality, a light that enables the soul to receive worthily the indwelling of the three divine Persons’ (p. 7).

          John: That rendering seems to lend itself too readily to a concrete natura pura interpretation?
          I like this one, below, much better:

          Piet Fransen: “created grace may not be conceived of apart from the divine indwelling”

          Oecumenical Grace: Catholicism and the Divine Life

          Liked by 1 person

          • Tom says:

            Journet: This new capacity is created grace.

            Tom: I agree John, that this approach is problematic, for the reasons you mention.

            I still don’t understand why one would feel the need to name the effects in creation of God’s gracious work as ‘created grace’. Let grace = uncreated God and all his works gracious expression of him, participations in grace and reflections of it. But to say these created effects of God’s activity simply are grace, but just created grace seems awfully strange to me.

            An example, 1Cor 12. We’re familiar with χαρισμάτων (charismatōn, “gift” or “grace-gifts,” whatever you prefer). But the larger word that incorporates the other terms Paul uses (‘charistmaton’ being only one of them) is the opening term in 12.1: “Now concerning – not “gifts” (charismaton) – but πνευματικῶν (pneumatikōn, “spirituals”) which a few verses later Paul describes as simply “manifestations” of the Spirit (to each is given a φανέρωσις, phanerōsis, of the Spirit). But these are not instances of ‘grace’ that are created and given, as far as I see. They are effects in us of the Spirit himself, personally present. They are God working, serving, speaking, through us.

            Is it not enough to say we are created and that the uncreated grace of God sustains, informs, and empowers us? Must the effect in us of God’s gracious work be categorized as “created grace”? I don’t see what’s accomplished by imposes that division upon things.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Tom says:

            If there was a created grace that healed me of typos, then I could see the argument.

            Liked by 1 person

  30. Fr Al: “my friend’s explanation depends on the scholastic notion of created grace: if grace is created, it must be resistible because only God himself is irresistible. I then asked him, What about uncreated grace? His reply: Don’t muddy the waters! 😁 And of course he’s right, since it wasn’t until the 20th century that Thomists began to give uncreated grace its due.”

    John: Such distinctions as those and many others as applied between different graces have been so very well worked out!

    Even as I have dropped the perditionist presuppositions of postmortem volitional irreversibility, passive reprobation & everlasting perdition and have adopted in their stead my universalist presuppositions of Tom Belt’s Maximian irrevocability thesis, co-self-determined degrees of theophanic luminosity & transitory purgation, my own grace & freedom perplexities yet persist. I find myself still navigating the shoals of Pelagianism & Calvinism. I turn to the Jesuits, who admonish the Bañezians that they’re steering a treacherous Calvinist course. Then I turn to the Dominicans, who claim that the Molinists are adrift in Pelagian waters.

    Even as a universalist, I want to understand the divine economic machinery as it operates both ante- & post-mortem, differentially gifting infused graces, immediate presences, secondary beatitudes, degrees of glory, miraculous healings and such. I wonder how I might square impeccability & inancaritability with our freedom. And I cling to my nuanced notions like election, predestination & divine predilection, of course, applying them to – of course, not some gratuitous “get out of hell free card,” but – degrees of sanctity, transitory beatific visions, and other gratuitous favorings ordered toward the overall communal good.

    Hence, the logical & evidential problems of evil persist for me and, at bottom, I’ll “solve” that with my skeptical theist maneuver as I beat a mysterian retreat that’s anti-theodicy, evidentially. While I’m not really reliant on defenses, logically, I’m still intrigued by them.

    This brings me to Matthews Grant’s approach. Anyone impressed with Wahlberg’s Thomistic Autonomy Defense will be similarly appreciative of the justifying reasons Grant has proposed in defense of God’s general permission of moral evil. Both Grant & Wahlberg are searching for an alternative to the Free Will Defense. Some may also recall Justin Noia’s attempt to refine incompatibilism such that, regardless of character, anyone would be necessitated to love God in the beatific vision, although necessitated in a sense that’s still consistent with incompatibilism. So, Noia introduces a divine indwelling-based beatific contingency in the place of a character-based contingency.

    What I deeply appreciate about all of these attempts to preserve incompatibilism is the speculative heavy lifting that’s involved in bolstering our logical defenses to the problem of evil. Where I part ways with all of them is in imagining that they’ve, somehow, put forth successful defenses to the problem of evil.

    This brings us back to the created and uncreated grace distinction, where the latter includes the divine indwelling and the beatific vision. Noia’s indwelling-based contingency “solution” won’t work unless one finds the notion of a concrete natura pura coherent. The problem for the defenses of Grant & Wahlberg is that their greater good justifications either work just fine without the presupposition of eternal perdition and/or fail to be morally defensible (cf. DBH’s eschatological moral modal collapse). Other than that, kudos to Grant, Wahlberg, Noia & others for the invaluable assists given to universalists for our own logical defenses to the problem of evil! Uncreated grace quite muddies the waters!

    I suppose that reveals my favorite chapter in Grant’s book. That book was at first intimidating because its scholarly depth & analytic approach had me drowning in academic waters that were way over my head. I experience this feeling, even on the birdapp, where I am dazzled by the brilliance of folks like Prof TPO, the Rev Dr JDR & many of their interlocutors. Whatever one makes of Grant’s extrinsic – concurrence proposal, he’s made an invaluable contribution to the freedom – grace discourse because, at least for incompatibilists, his engagement with competing accounts combines a breadth of comprehension & depth of analysis rarely found together. Not only that, his prose is eminently accessible & rhetoric robustly explanatory, which greatly lowered my level of intimidation. His compilation of endnotes was, alone, worth the price of admission with a bonus feature being that the copy function is enabled on my Kindle edition.

    My assessment regarding the substance of his proposal:

    As a casual inquirer, it still looks like theological determinism to me.

    His approach seems to turn on the coherence of a strong version of the doctrine of divine simplicity & lack of “real” relations, thus depriving me of any motive to favorably receive his account systematically. My leanings toward a metaphysic of intersubjectivity (cf Braken, Gelpi, et al) looks for a more robustly personalist accounting, so a weaker DDS & thin passibility (cf Clarke).

    BUT there are elements of Grant’s account that are intriguing and which could survive in isolation & appropriated by competing stances. The prime example being his greatly expanded inventory of plausible greater goods, which are available for carry-out, even by universalists.

    Also, I don’t find the idea of dual causes that are concurrent or simultaneous problematic in & of themselves, especially with his artfully crafted distinctions between various arches. It inchoately brings to mind, for me, rightly or wrongly, essentially & accidentally ordered series, vertical & horizontal causes, Bonaventure’s emanation, the Monarchy of the Father, the uncreated grace of the Hypostatic Union, emergentism in general, double agency, co-determinations, and on & on. What’s problematic, perhaps, is overapplying the concept to theoanthropo realities better explained by competing accounts or more felicitously understood in a different idiom. Here I am way over my epistemic skis. What the analytics are doing exceed what my common sensical approach can grasp or make intelligible. So, chalk that critique up to my unlearned intuitions.

    Speaking of unlearned, as I read, I felt like someone was defending a theological compatibilism – creaturely incompatibiilism. If that’s indeed the case, I think I could be sold if the objections I cited above could be overcome. In and of itself, such a soft determinism isn’t terribly problematic for my imagination. As a natural scientist by schooling, most of my compadres were secular, agnostics & atheists as well as soft determinists, i.e. compatibilists in preserving our moral responsibility notwithstanding our emergence from a mere fluctuation of the quantum foam. If a quantum vacuum can yield free rational creatures, then God surely can? The secularists are confronted with an atheodicy problem of explaining reality’s super-sufficient freedom, superfluous beauty, hyper-gratuitous goodness & extravagantly excessive meaning, all from an infinite accidentally ordered series of causes. Those who variously invoke different essentially ordered series …

    This is a good place to stop.

    I’ll finish with a Hasker quote made by Grant that Tom Belt will surely appreciate. It works in Open approaches and, to my delight, I think affirms in part my own “cosmic waveform analogy defense,” which I’ll not explicate here. Thanks for the recommendation. Grant’s book is cybernestled on my Kindle right next to _Destined for Joy_. I hope I did your request justice and advanced your “selfish motives.” lol

    open quote: God has complete, detailed, and utterly intimate knowledge of the entirety of the past and the present. He also, of course, knows the inward constitution, tendencies, and powers of each entity in the fullest measure. And, finally, he has full knowledge of his own purposes, and of how they may best be carried out. Everything God does is informed by the totality of this knowledge; the guidance he gives, if he chooses to give it, is wisdom pure and unalloyed. Knowing what he knows, God may sometimes know also that the uninterrupted course of natural action and human responses will best serve his deep purposes. He may, on the other hand, know that for this purpose to go forward there is need for his own direct touch and influence, whether recognized or unrecognized, on this or that human personality. Or finally, he may see that for his purpose best to be fulfilled what is called for is his immediate, purposeful intervention in the processes of nature—in other words, a miracle. Whatever God needs to do, he has the power to do; whatever he sees is best to do happens forthwith. ~ Hasker, God, Time, and Knowledge, 192.
    close quote

    Liked by 2 people

    • Tom says:

      Appreciate this. Thanks John.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I had written: What I deeply appreciate about all of these attempts to preserve incompatibilism is the speculative heavy lifting that’s involved in bolstering our logical defenses to the problem of evil. Where I part ways with all of them is in imagining that they’ve, somehow, put forth successful defenses to the problem of evil.

      The 2nd sentence, as should be clear per the overall context, should have read: Where I part ways with all of them is in imagining that they’ve, somehow, put forth successful defenses to the problem of HELL.

      Like

  31. Fr Aidan Kimel says:

    Reblogged this on Eclectic Orthodoxy and commented:

    I’m afraid that the revising of my article has continued apace since its initial publication. It is now 2,200+ words longer. But IMHO it is a much stronger piece and I’m happy with the final product. Even if you have already read it, I encourage you to read it again, share your comments in the combox. and share it with your friends and enemies. 😎

    Liked by 1 person

  32. Tom says:

    Last footnote: ** I want to thank Tom Belt, whose assistance in the composition and revision of this article was invaluable. Needless to say, responsibility for all flaws and blunders rest completely with him. ;o)

    Tom: Love it. I am piece of history now. I will go wherever this article goes!

    This must be how I finally make it into glory from the fires of purgation, as a humorous footnote Christ adds at the veeery end of things as he finally surrenders the Kingdom to the Father and God is “all in all.” Amen.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Tom, I’m having trouble properly threading my responses as the size of the blog post plus comments has grown to where it’s too cumbersome for my Jetpack app.

      re: un/created grace, as has so often been the case, it’s not the original scholastic distinction that’s problematic, it’s some neo-scholastic misappropriation or popularized misconception that can lead to some rather repugnant implications.

      Not inconsistent, then, with your explication of the dynamism of gracing, Tom:

      1) Rahner & Lonergan both saw how some treated sanctifying grace as the primary basis — rather than the initial & ongoing effect — of the indwelling.

      2) Another rather prominent infelicity of the un/created grace bifurcation is that it has fostered too much objectivizing of the divine presence. Grace refers to persons and not creaturely things.

      3) I haven’t studied what was going on historically so can’t address what motivated the un/created distinction. I think some may have been distinguishing between sanctifying grace & charity. Scotus suggested, contra mostly Thomists (but perhaps agreeing with Thomas the Belt) that, nah, it’s ALL charity!

      That’s the Readers Digest version of this over-answering of your question, which I hope wasn’t rhetorical because I skipped breakfast for this. It would be like Alex Haley writing Roots for decades only to later discover he had been adopted.

      Grace Refers to Persons as they intersubjectively communicate in various ways & to different extents

      Liked by 1 person

      • Tom says:

        Appreciate this John. Thanks.

        It seems to me the created & uncreated grace distinction is innocuous if it’s simply a way to differentiate between creation as created effect and God himself. In that case I wouldn’t call the latter ‘grace’, but the distinction if fine. I’m not sure what work is being done by calling both ‘grace’.

        There was a resource linked earlier in these comments (can’t remember which) that argued the distinction had to do with creating a category of divine action that could be resisted, and since the uncreated grace of God was viewed as irresistible, coming up with created grace that could be resisted was a big plus. Maybe I didn’t follow it right, but that seemed to be the point. But why not just say that the uncreated God is grace at all levels, in all its aims and operations, but that he (not ‘it’, for such objectification of grace is part of the problem of dividing grace between created & uncreated) can be temporarily resisted but not ‘finally’ defeated?

        The only operation of grace that seems obviously irresistible is the grace that calls us into being originally out of nothing. We’re not around to object to being born. But even here, as some Eastern thinkers (Bulgakov) point out, the grace that brings us into being must be ‘consented’ to freely by us, for only then are we finally created. So perhaps this: uncreated grace is the only grace there is because grace is the uncreated God in his creative acts, and this grace (God) is (by his own free determination and creative design) resistible until we stop resisting, since by our consent we co-create ourselves, and that he (this grace) can never finally be defeated.

        Besides the objectifying tendency at work in the division (grace becomes an ‘it’ and ceases to function as ‘person’), the division feels a bit like the older NeoPlatonism that populated the distance between God and the here below with a hierarchy of mediation. But this has no place in the Christian story (Hart’s lecture on this comes to mind).

        Here’s hoping any of that made some sense.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Tom: It seems to me the created & uncreated grace distinction is innocuous if it’s simply a way to differentiate between creation as created effect and God himself. In that case I wouldn’t call the latter ‘grace’, but the distinction if fine. I’m not sure what work is being done by calling both ‘grace’.

          Tom (BirdApp): Did you find a good English rendering of the Latin ‘forma transformans’ (for uncreated grace) and ‘forma transformata’ (for created grace)?

          John: D’accord.

          Those distinctions were used in the Halesian Summa or Summa Fratris Alexandri (by the early Franciscans).

          I like H. Daniel Monsour’s rendering:

          transformata = transforrned state or habitus of Godlikeness

          transforman = transfoming Holy Spirit

          For any interested in delving more deeply into various Franciscan contributions to the competing speculative accounts regarding nature, grace & freedom, among the best resources I’ve found are:

          1) Iustitia Dei: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification by Alister McGrath

          2) The Summa Halensis, Doctrines and Debates edited by Lydia Schumacher, especially Vincent L. Strand, SJ’s contributuon entitled The Ontology of Grace of Alexander of Hales and John of La Rochelle

          3) H. Daniel Monsour’s dissertation – The relation between uncreated and created grace in the Halesian Summa, a Lonergan reading

          I was engaging those in my broader inquiry of recruiting OFM theologoumena for my universalism, e.g. absolute primacy of Christ.

          To more quickly focus on the points most salient to such universalist concerns, I would direct those interested to see Monsour’s dissertation (re uncreated and created grace in the Halesian Summa) and to take account of his repeated use (13 times) of the phrase “already wholly present God.” He invokes it as a reference to “the just” in the context of how uncreated grace, the Holy Spirit, PRECEDES transformata, i.e. the habitus of Godlikeness, and isn’t, rather, posterior to or contingent upon same. Scotus also did that, later.

          While Monsour’s Halesian account of sanctification is integral to my own universalist account, a question yet begs regarding how anyone comes to a state of justification, e.g. by cooperation with baptismal grace.

          So, we must inquire further to ask to whom are the channels of grace open & how might they variously access its assistance to finally attain their inherent human teloi, including both our penultimate apokatastenai & ultimate apokatastasis?

          As you know, often, the best strategy for cutting to the chase in matters of great theoanthropological moment is to put forward such questions in limit cases, which can more quickly & most sharply expose the theological tensions that are in play, e.g. How many angels can …?

          One limit case that well suits the needs of my universalist approach in this particular Franciscan context is the one discussed by the International Theological Commission in its publication – The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized.

          To more quickly turn our focus to the points most salient to our immediate concerns, I’ll repeat the strategy that I employed for Monsour’s dissertation, wherein I pointed to repeated occurrences of the phrase “already wholly present God.” [Use your browser’s in-page “search” feature.]

          To wit, then, in the ITC’s document regarding “The Hope of Salvation,” I would direct all to those 13 paragraphs therein which cite “GS 22,” which is a reference to Vatican II’s Pastoral Constitution On the Church in the Modern World, Gaudium et Spes.

          Links to direct pdf downloads for
          a) McGrath’s Iustitia Dei,
          b) Schumacher’s The Summa Halensis, Doctrines and Debates and
          c) Monsour’s dissertation;
          and to Vatican urls for
          d) the ITC’s document “The Hope of Salvation” and
          e) Gaudium et Spes, along with
          f) 9 extensive excerpts from that ITC doc, which cite Gaudium et Spes, can all be accessed here:

          A Universalist Appropriation of Franciscan Justification, Sanctification & Glorification

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  33. Fr Aidan Kimel says:

    For those still thinking about created grace, see this article of mine that I had almost forgotten about.

    Oecumenical Grace: Roman Catholicism and Created Grace

    Liked by 2 people

  34. Fr Aidan Kimel says:

    I have made available the now out-of-print book The New Life of Grace by Piet Fransen. It’s one of the best books I have read on the doctrine of grace from a Roman Catholic perspective.

    Liked by 2 people

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