Is Universalism Incompatible with God’s Love? A Response to Eleonore Stump

by Thomas Talbott, Ph.D.

In an article entitled “The God of Love,”1 Professor Eleonore Stump argues that universalism, understood as “the thesis that God unilaterally brings it about that all human beings are brought to heaven,” is “not only not a consequence of God’s love; it is not so much as compatible with God’s love.” A lot here depends, of course, on what it might mean to say that “God unilaterally [my emphasis] brings it about that all human beings are brought to heaven.” For even as someone who believes in the metaphysical necessity of universalism, that is not a claim I would likely ever endorse myself; and I’ll return to this issue at the end of these reflections. But I want to begin here with an important point of agreement. For, not surprisingly, I fully agree with Professor Stump’s emphatic rejection of perhaps the most popular understanding of hell to be found among the Christian laity: the idea that hell consists of something like an everlasting torture chamber.

According to Professor Stump, “not only is it deplorable to think of hell as God’s torture chamber”; there is in fact no “place where God exacts endless retributive punishment from those whose sins do not merit [and could not possibly merit] what they receive there.” God is not, after all, “an incompetent accountant, who assigns infinitely enduring pain for finite evil done.” Early on in her article, therefore, Professor Stump declares, “I will reject the popular conception of hell [as God’s torture chamber], which I repudiate, and assume instead the Thomistic conception” of hell. Beyond that—and this may come as a surprise to some—she also rejects the common supposition “that what is needed for salvation is a conscious commitment to a set of [correct] religious beliefs,” such as certain beliefs, I presume, concerning the nature and work of Jesus Christ. And finally, she thinks it “a confusion to think of hell as a place at all. It is rather the condition of a human being who repudiates love and so lacks [at least temporarily, I would add] even the will to have a good will.” So here is perhaps her most important paragraph on the topic of saving faith:

The necessary and sufficient condition for entry into heaven is the will of faith, that is, a will for a will that wills the good, that loves God’s goodness and rejects its own evil. . . . [T]his is a will that God infuses into everyone who does not reject it. To be a person in hell, then, is to be a person who lacks even the will to have a good will, and who lacks it because he spurns love. Such a person is not a basically nice person who unfortunately just happens not to be an adherent to Christian theological beliefs. Rather, a person in this condition shares something of the condition commonly attributed to Satan. As he is typically portrayed, Satan is characterized as an intelligent being who does not even want to have a will that wills the good.

Consider more closely now the crucial idea here that God infuses “the will of faith, that is, a will for a will that wills the good . . . into everyone who does not [freely] reject it.” If someone with free will does freely reject the will of faith within a given timeframe, what implication does that carry for later timeframes? Does it exclude any chance of a later change of heart in which this same person freely chooses to repent and hence freely chooses to cease rejecting the will of faith? If so, then in what sense is the idea of someone continuing to reject the will of faith both freely and forever even a coherent idea? Instead of addressing such questions directly, Professor Stump compares the condition of those who reject the will of faith to that of Satan himself: “As he is typically portrayed,” she writes in the above quotation, “Satan is characterized as an intelligent being who does not even want to have a will that wills the good.” But that merely raises a further question in my mind. Many Christians believe that, having rebelled decisively against God, Satan’s condition is now hopeless in this sense: at no time in the future will he ever again have the power to repent or to have a change of heart, so to speak. More specifically, at no time in the future will it be psychologically possible for Satan to cease rejecting the will of faith. One might even wonder whether God now has any love for Satan at all or makes any grace available for him to reject. So given such a picture, in what sense is Satan now a free moral agent even if he was such at the time of his original rebellion?

Now whatever view one might hold on the issue of whether God’s love extends even to Satan himself, Professor Stump makes abundantly clear her own acceptance of the view that God’s love does indeed extend to every human being. She thus considers a man whom she calls “Jerome” and imagines him to be an example of someone “who permanently rejects God’s love.” Accordingly, Jerome “lacks union with God,” she suggests, “just because Jerome himself refuses it.” And that raises the question of how we are to understand the claim that Jerome (or anyone else) “permanently rejects God’s love”? Some have speculated that a hardened sinner like Jerome might opt for annihilation as a way of finally and conclusively rejecting God’s love for him. But even though Professor Stump never addresses directly the idea of a self-chosen annihilation, she nonetheless rejects the idea, even as I do, that God would ever annihilate someone whom he truly loves. She thus writes concerning Jerome, “There is nothing [left] to love if God annihilates him.”

So if a perfectly loving God would never allow someone he loves to opt for a freely chosen annihilation, why suppose that he would permit someone like Jerome to continue freely rejecting his love forever? And why cannot God eventually correct Jerome simply by permitting him to experience, if necessary, the very condition of separation that he has freely and confusedly chosen for himself? The answers to such questions no doubt require a more complete explanation and a more complete account of free will than proponents of a free will theodicy of hell have typically provided.

Rationality and the Limits of Possible Freedom

Most proponents of a free will theodicy of hell accept, even as I do, some form of a so-called libertarian conception of free will, according to which free will is incompatible with the thesis of determinism. For according to the latter thesis, every event that occurs in time, including every choice that you or I might make, will be the product of causal conditions that lie either in the distant past before we were born or in eternity itself.

Every choice that you or I might make, in other words, will be the product of conditions over which we have never had any control whatsoever. So the libertarian conception of free will is clearly incompatible with the thesis of determinism. But most libertarians rarely take as seriously as they should important arguments for the conclusion that free will is also incompatible with indeterminism (understood as sheer arbitrariness or random chance);2 and if free will should turn out to be incompatible with both determinism and indeterminism, as some have claimed it is, then in what sense do we even have a coherent concept here?3 Quite apart from the issue of coherence, moreover, the assertion of at least some indeterminism in human behavior hardly provides, all by itself, a sufficiently complete account of human free will. As I have written elsewhere:

For not just any uncaused event, or just any agent-caused choice, or just any randomly generated selection between alternatives will qualify as a free choice of the relevant kind. At the very least, moral freedom also requires a minimal degree of rationality on the part of the choosing agent, including an ability to learn from experience, an ability to discern [normal] reasons for acting, and a capacity for moral improvement. With good reason, therefore, do we exclude small children, the severely brain damaged, paranoid schizophrenics, and even dogs from the class of free moral agents. For, however causally undetermined some of their behaviors might be, they all lack some part of the rationality required to qualify as free moral agents.4

The threshold of rationality that moral freedom requires is also relevant to the coherence issue mentioned above. For it seems as if, on the one hand, reason must proceed in accordance with its own self-determined principles and canons; hence, a reasoning mind could never function properly in a closed deterministic system in which every belief someone holds today is the product of causal conditions that already existed in the distant past. As Warner Wick once put it, “all talk of truth . . . would be utterly pointless if there were nothing to it but causal influences that induced me to say or think this, while causing you to opine that”;5 or, as C. S. Lewis once put it, “rational thought is not part of the system of Nature. Within each man there must be an area (however small) of activity which is outside or independent of her. In relation to Nature, rational thought goes on ‘of its own accord’ or exists ‘on its own.”6 But it also seems as if, on the other hand, the ability to reason with some degree of accuracy, given the available information one has when choosing between alternatives, is also what distinguishes an undetermined choice from a purely arbitrary event or that which is wholly a matter of random chance. Any undetermined choice, especially when made in a context of ambiguity, ignorance, or even serious delusion, will no doubt include at least some elements of random chance. Even then, however, the relevant rationality is what enables one to learn important lessons from one’s mistakes, from one’s miscalculations, and, most important of all, from the consequences of choices that one makes despite knowing that they are morally wrong.

So are there good reasons for Christians to believe that anyone who is intelligent or rational enough to qualify as a free moral agent could permanently and freely reject the love of God? I seriously doubt it. For consider a two-fold assumption that seems implicit in many Christian teachings and exhortations: first, that the highest possible good for created persons (true blessedness, if you will) requires a proper relationship (or even a kind of union) with their Creator, and second, that a complete severance from the divine nature, without even an implicit experience of God’s love, would be a truly horrific experience. As C. S. Lewis once wrote concerning the divine nature, “Union with that Nature is bliss and separation from it [an objective] horror.”7 If that is true, then it seems quite impossible for any sinner to continue freely rejecting God’s love forever.

Here is why. At any given time T, a sinner like Jerome either remains rational enough to qualify as a free moral agent or he does not. If he does not so qualify, then two consequences follow:

  1. He is no longer in a position to reject God’s love freely, and
  2. God can restore the required rationality without in any way interfering with a nonexistent freedom.

But if he does so qualify, then God can indeed correct him, as a last resort if necessary, simply by honoring his own free choices and allowing him to experience the very horrific condition of separation that he has freely and confusedly chosen for himself. That, by the way, is also how I would interpret the New Testament image of the outer darkness (where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth). This image, as I interpret it, represents separation from the divine nature as far as this is metaphysically possible short of annihilation, and the experience of such total separation would exclude even an experience of a physical environment or of interacting with other people. It would be as if one were existing alone in sheer nothingness. For when Paul quoted the poet Epimenides of Crete in order to make the point that “in him [God] we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28), he seems to imply that God is not only our moral and spiritual environment, but our physical environment as well. In any case, here is how George MacDonald describes the loneliness and terror of the outer darkness in his great sermon “The Consuming Fire”:

Imagination cannot mislead us into too much horror of being without God—that one living death. . . . For let a man think and care ever so little about God, he does not therefore exist without God. God is here with him, upholding, warming, delighting, teaching him—making life a good thing to him. God gives him himself, though he knows it not. But when God withdraws from a man [or permits the man to withdraw from God] as far as that can be without the man’s ceasing to be; when the man feels himself abandoned, hanging in a ceaseless vertigo of existence upon the verge of the gulf of his being, without support, without refuge, without aim, without end . . . with no inbreathing of joy, with nothing [including the faintest experience of love] to make life good, then will he listen in agony for the faintest sound of life from the closed door.7

If MacDonald was right about this, as I believe he was, then the outer darkness just is the condition of separation that those hardened sinners who reject God and his love have confusedly chosen for themselves. So I see no way to avoid the following conclusion. For as long as those sinners who continue rejecting God’s love remain rational enough to qualify as being morally responsible for their actions, experiencing the outer darkness would shatter every illusion that some good (or desirable end) is available apart from God. It would finally elicit a cry for help, therefore, of a kind that, however faint, is just what God needs in order to begin and eventually to complete the process of reconciliation.

John Milton’s Portrait of Satan

Return now to the issue of whether God’s love, as well as an offer of forgiveness, extends not only to every human being, but even to Satan himself. Like Professor Stump, I am a fan of John Milton’s Paradise Lost, and I certainly agree with her that in this great epic poem hell turns out to be more than a place of punishment; it is, more basically, the unavoidable condition of someone who rejects God and his love. For my own part, however, I am especially impressed by how incredibly confused and deluded Satan is in Book I, by how many delusions he has lost by Book IV, and by how close he comes to repentance here as well. But even though Milton’s portrayal of Satan seems to me as unrealistic in the end as his depiction of immortals fighting each other with swords, cannons, and the like, it is nonetheless enormously insightful in specific contexts. Milton’s artistic challenge was to portray Satan as both the Arch Fiend (virtually the incarnation of pure evil), on the one hand, and as a free and morally responsible agent, on the other. That he was unable to unite both portraits into a believable whole in no way diminishes his artistic achievement.

So consider first the wholly arrogant and utterly defiant character in Book I, where we find his so-called “heroic speech,” part of which so many like to quote: “To reign is worth ambition though in Hell: / Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav’n” (Bk. I, lines 262-263). Remarkably, right after being driven out of heaven by superior power, Satan then entered a place he calls hell exclaiming: “Hail horrors, hail / Infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell. / Receive thy new Possessor” (250-252). But from whence comes the absurd assumption that anyone other than God can rule in hell or have any control over it at all? As Satan later comes to recognize, moreover, he can have no control, apart from repentance, over what happens to him in hell or anywhere else. Still, he does have control over his own mind (and his continuing defiance), and that seems to be the source of his confusion here. He thus describes himself as

One who brings
A mind not to be chang’d by Place or Time.
The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav’n of Hell, a Hell of Heav’n. (252-255)

Satan’s control over his own mind and his ability to cling to an attitude of defiance is evidently, then, the source of his illusion that he “Can make a Heav’n of Hell,” with the illusion that “Here at least / We shall be free” (258-259), and with the illusion that “Here [in hell] we may reign secure” (261). Worse yet, he seems totally oblivious of the fact that, by rejecting God and his love altogether, he is in effect choosing the outer darkness (where he would have no one to rule over and no environment of any kind to experience). It is a tribute to Milton’s art, however, that by Book IV Satan has already lost most of the illusions that made his “heroic speech” of Book I possible in the first place.

So now consider, by way of contrast, the more pitiful (and even human) character that Satan displays in Book IV. Here an awakened conscience, so essential to moral freedom, leads him into despair. As Milton puts it as part of the narrative, “Now conscience wakes despair / That slumber’d, wakes the bitter memory / Of what he was” (Bk. IV, lines 23-25). His awakened conscience also leads Satan to acknowledge the extent to which “Pride and worse Ambition threw me down” (40). He even upbraids himself for being so stupid in “boasting I could subdue / th’ Omnipotent” (86-87) and also acknowledges the extent of his own guilt: “Ah wherefore! He [God] deserv’d no such return / From me, whom he created what I was / In that bright eminence” (42-45). A little later we encounter the lament that Professor Stump quotes so appropriately:

Me miserable! Which way shall I fly
Infinite wrath and infinite despair?
Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell. (73-75)

But in addition to that lament, I think it important to point out that, because Satan has not yet lost his rationality altogether, he seriously contemplates the idea of repenting, as if this might be a genuine possibility for him: “O then at last relent: Is there no place / Left for repentance, none for Pardon left?” (79-80). Granted, he still retains the illusion, which would itself easily be shattered in the outer darkness, that he can continue to rule over the legions of fallen angels in hell, perhaps even forever, and to receive worship and praise from them in return. That illusion together with the fear of being shamed in front of those he had deceived is simply too much for him to endure, and he thus finds himself unwilling to repent. It seems to me, however, that had Milton’s art not been the slave of his theology, perhaps Satan would indeed have repented in Book IV. That certainly seems to have been the direction he was heading.

Recall, in any case, Professor Stump’s description of Satan as “an intelligent being who does not even want to have a will that wills the good.” How should we understand such a description? Is there some intelligible motive or some perceived benefit for oneself that someone might have for not even wanting “a will that wills the good”? What Milton’s portrait of Satan in fact illustrates, as I see it, is the sheer irrationality of not even wanting such a will. It also illustrates the essential role that ignorance, misperception, and, above all, serious delusions concerning the conditions of one’s own happiness must play in any intelligible decision to reject God and his love. As I have again written elsewhere:

But these very conditions [e. g., ignorance and various delusions] are also obstacles to free choice of the relevant kind. If I am ignorant of, or deceived about, the true consequences of my choices, then I am in no position to embrace those consequences freely; and if I suffer from an illusion that conceals from me the true nature of God, or the true import of union with God, then I am again in no position to reject him freely. I may reject a caricature of God, or a false conception, but that would be a far cry from rejecting the true God himself. Accordingly, the very conditions that render a less than fully informed decision to reject God intelligible also render it less than fully free.8

This also illustrates an important asymmetry in my own concept of moral freedom, which always requires that one has surpassed a minimal threshold of rationality. But it does not always require a power to act otherwise, and this is where the asymmetry arises. When one acts in a context of ambiguity, ignorance, and misperception—as we all do at the beginning of our earthly lives—and ends up acting wrongly or just choosing less than the best available option, moral freedom always requires a power to act otherwise. But when one acts in a context of full clarity and ends up doing the right thing for the right reasons, moral freedom does not always require a power to act otherwise; and I’ll give three examples in the following section.9

But because I have discussed each of these examples in a previous entry (see “James Dominic Rooney’s Critique of Universalism,” posted about a year ago on November 20, 2022), some readers of that entry may find the following section a bit repetitive, even though there are some differences, and may want to skip over it.

Freedom without a Power to Act Otherwise: Three Examples

My first example is almighty God himself. As the most rational of all possible beings, God never acts in a context of ambiguity, ignorance, or delusion; to the contrary, whenever there is a best thing to do in a given set of circumstances, God always knows exactly what it is. And because he always acts in a context of such full clarity, he is in fact the freest of all possible beings. According to Titus 1:2, for example, God cannot lie. Or, if you prefer, it is a necessary truth that he never lies. It is likewise a necessary truth, surely, that God never breaks a promise. Are we to conclude, therefore, that once God makes a promise, he no longer acts freely when he keeps that promise, or that he never acts freely when he communicates a truth (rather than a lie) to someone? Of course not! For as Edward Wierenga once pointed out in an important article on this topic, the stipulation that divine freedom always requires a power to act otherwise “amounts to saying that God is free only when it does not matter what he does.” Why? Because such a stipulation only leaves “room for God’s freedom in circumstances in which any choice he makes is on a par with any other, where he might as well choose blindly or randomly, and that is not a significant amount of freedom.”10

Similar remarks apply to the perfected saints in heaven, which is my second example of when freedom does not require a psychological possibility of acting otherwise. These perfected saints make choices and continue acting in a context of full clarity concerning both the consequences of remaining united with God and the consequences of rejecting his love. Having experienced firsthand union with the divine nature and the bliss that this entails, they also have a clear vision, uncorrupted by delusions of any kind, of why it would be self-defeating and utterly irrational for them to reject God’s love. It is no longer even psychologically possible, therefore, that they would intentionally perform such an irrational action as that. In fact, insofar as acting in accordance with one’s own rational judgment concerning the best action in a given situation is a sufficient condition of acting freely in that situation, as I have argued in greater detail elsewhere,11 a power to act otherwise would simply be a power not to meet that sufficient condition of acting freely.

Finally, as my third example, consider a young mother who is filled with love for her newborn baby. Given her motherly instincts and her love, she would no doubt find the idea of abandoning her beloved baby in a garbage dump somewhere absolutely unthinkable and would likewise find it psychologically impossible not to care for her baby in any given situation where continuing to do so remained an available option for her. If one should say, as I do, that she continues to act freely in the matter of caring for her baby, one can also say, perhaps, that such a free action is compatible with its being determined by her present desires, intentions, and state of mind. In no way does it follow, however, that any of her present actions are produced by a chain of causes that originated either in the distant past long before she was born or in eternity itself. In fact, she might not even have been born herself had slightly different choices been made (concerning the precise timing of a sexual encounter, for example) the night she was conceived.

So the bottom line is that moral freedom never requires a power to act otherwise unless someone suffers from serious delusions concerning the best course of action in a given situation. Such delusions are impossible in the case of God, are no longer possible in the case of a perfected saint’s choosing to remain united with God, and are incompatible with anyone acting in a context of full clarity concerning the best course of action or the right thing to do in a given situation.

Must an Infinitely Resourceful God Act Unilaterally in Order to Save All?

Return now to the suggestion that, according to universalism, “God unilaterally brings it about that all human beings are brought to heaven.” Just how should we understand the term “unilateral” in the present context? One way would be to presuppose a rigorous theological determinism in which God causally determines, either directly or indirectly through secondary causes, every event that occurs and every state of affairs that exists in his creation. And this would surely imply that, for anyone who ends up in heaven, God unilaterally brings it about that this person is brought to heaven. As Professor Stump herself points out, “If God had not willed to create human beings with free will, then all states of affairs would have been up to God alone”;12 and as I have already indicated above, I fully agree that no morally significant free will could exist in the context of such theological determinism. So is Professor Stump here contending that universalism could be a metaphysical necessity only in the context of a rigorous theological determinism? That strikes me as a gigantic non-sequitur.

Here is a very different picture. Suppose that among the millions upon millions of created persons God must eventually deal with millions upon millions of unique spiritual needs; suppose further that, as created beings, our own free choices, often made in a context of ambiguity, ignorance, and even serious delusion, typically determine the precise nature of our own spiritual needs at any given time; and suppose, finally, that God will not continue forever protecting hardened sinners from the consequences of their own free choices. If necessary, in other words, God can always permit hardened sinners to experience the very life of estrangement and misery that they have freely and confusedly chosen for themselves. For the only alternative would be for God himself to interfere with the freedom of hardened sinners by never permitting them to achieve what they think they want: a complete separation from the divine nature. That is also why our worst choices are sometimes the most useful to God in teaching us the lessons that we ultimately need to learn. It also explains why the delusions that lead to a rejection of God and his love cannot endure forever in anyone who remains rational enough to qualify as a free moral agent. Here is how I have summed it all up elsewhere:

So in that way, the consequences of our free choices, both the good ones and the bad ones, are a source of revelation; they reveal sooner or later—in the next life, if not in this one—both the horror of separation from God and the bliss of union with him. And that is why the end is foreordained: all paths finally lead to the same destination, the end of reconciliation, though some are longer, windier, and a lot more painful than others.13

Now even though I here summarize my own view, I am neither defending it in the present context nor asking anyone else to accept it. For my intention in the present context is merely to draw a contrast between my own view and that of a theological determinist. If God responds to each of us differently depending upon our unique spiritual needs; if our own free choices help to determine what these spiritual needs in fact are; and if, beyond that, God employs our own free choices as a means of teaching us the lessons we need to learn and of “bringing us to heaven” in the end, would that qualify as a case where “God unilaterally brings it about that all human beings are brought to heaven”? That is not how I would ever employ the term “unilaterally” in the present context.

Footnnotes

1 See Eleonore Stump, “The God of Love,” Church Life Journal, April 13, 2023.

2 For some of these arguments, see Thomas Talbott, Understanding the Free Will Controversy: Thinking through a Philosophical Quagmire (Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2022), Chapter 3 “Indeterminism and Random Chance.”

3 See, for example, Richard Double, The Non-Reality of Free Will (New York: Oxford University Press, 1991).

4 Thomas Talbott, “Universalism,” in The Oxford Handbook of Eschatology, J. Walls (ed.), New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, p. 452,

5 Warner Wick. “Truth’s Debt to Freedom,” Mind: A Quarterly Review of Psychology and Philosophy, 73 (1964): 535. All of the italics belong to Wick.

6 C. S. Lewis, Miracles: A Preliminary Study (New York: Macmillan, 1975), p. 27.

7 C. S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy (New York: Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich, 1955), p. 232.

8 George MacDonald, “The Consuming Fire,” in Unspoken Sermons (Whitethorn, CA: Johannesen, 2004), p. 31.

9 Thomas Talbott, The Inescapable Love of God 2nd ed. (Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2014), p. 174.

10 For a similar view, see Susan Wolf, Freedom within Reason (New York: Oxford University Press, 1990).

11 Edward Wierenga, “The Freedom of God, Faith and Philosophy, 19 (2002): 433.

12 See Chapter 4 “Rationality and the Nature of Moral Freedom” in Understanding the Free Will Controversy.

13 Of course someone could believe that even apart from the issue of free will, our physical universe nonetheless has a good deal of indeterminism in it.

14 Inescapable Love of God, pp. 193-194.

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37 Responses to Is Universalism Incompatible with God’s Love? A Response to Eleonore Stump

  1. John burnett says:

    Can you please show me where the Bible even once talks about going to heaven, or about heaven as the destiny of the righteous?

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    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Why does that matter, John? Does it materially impact Talbott’s argument? Substitute “Kingdom of God” for heaven if you prefer.

      Like

    • Tom Talbott says:

      Hi John,

      Thanks for your question. No, I cannot show you that, according to the Bible, heaven is the the ultimate “destiny of the righteous.” At least I could not show that off the top of my head. Nor have I ever defended such a claim. In my entry above I was merely using Eleonore Stump’s own language concerning “destiny of the righteous.” For she defines “universalism” as “the thesis that God unilaterally brings it about that all human beings are brought to heaven,”

      Liked by 1 person

      • John burnett says:

        I tremble a bit to post this, Fr Adiden, and Tom, but it just strikes me that the argument is judging a football game by the rules of tennis. If God doesn’t bring anyone to heaven, then doesn’t that we’re looking at the matter in the wrong terms? And doesn’t that render at least half the argument otiose at best? Isn’t the whole argument off in the weeds somewhere in the next county over, because we’re not even talking about the God we know in Christ? I will grant the logic of the argument, or of Fr Deinhammer’s here in the comments, but it strikes me that there’s a paradox between mercy and justice, the more unresolvable the more you take it seriously.

        Yet if the entire cosmology that the argument presupposes is just not at all what Jesus, the apostles, or the prophets ever presupposed or talked about or had in mind— aren’t we arguing about some construct in our own heads?? The best we can do that way is maybe tidy up some metaphysical misconceptions, but we can’t get to the heart of the matter of the only Salvation there is.

        There isn’t one single place in Scripture that speaks of anyone “going to heaven”— with the sole exception of Elijah, who “went up to the sky [to ‘heaven’ if you will] in the whirlwind” (2K 2.11). But Elijah’s fate isn’t everybody’s and apparently even he was in some sense to return anyway (Mal 4.5). In fact, “The heaven, even the heavens, belong to Yhwh: but the earth he has given to the sons of men” (Ps 115.16). So whatever it is that God has in mind for us, our destiny is on earth, not in heaven. That’s why we pray, “Thy kingly reign come . . . on earth as it is in heaven” (Mt 6.10). So what would that reign look like?

        To turn God’s reign on earth into an afterlife involving “heaven” or “hell” is simply not what the Bible or the apostles were ever concerned with. That idea was just not part of their cosmology. And if i’m not mistaken, it still isn’t even mentioned in the Orthodox funeral service.

        When we die, we go into the grave. If the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man can be taken as any indication of what we ourselves may expect, then apparently she’ol/hades can be pleasant or unpleasant, depending on how we behaved. And that makes sense. But even Abraham himself, whose “bosom” (or “valley”— DBH) Lazarus lies in, and Lazarus himself, are still dead, still awaiting resurrection. They have not “gone to heaven”. They are still only in hades!

        And when he gets ready, God will raise everyone up from death, including the rich man, including us.

        And then of course the Son of Man— God’s viceroy— will come to judge all the nations (Mt 25.31ff). But what is the κόλασις αἰώνιος to which he assigns those nations that did not “do it for the least of these”? (25.41, 46)— is the κόλασις αἰώνιος he speaks of just the Bible’s colorful way of talking about our more abstract notion of “ECT”?— abstract in the sense that it’s a purely logical construct, unrelated to any narrative, just a bit of colorful imagery that Jesus is using to illustrate ECT?

        That is nothing more than fantasy. First of all, Mt 25.31ff specifically says the King is separating nations, not individuals (cf 25.32). So it’s not about whether you or I will “go to hell”, but about how history will be judged. Knowing that, we will know what to do while we’re still in the midst of it. Secondly, no one separates goats from sheep to destroy the goats; and no one destroys goats just because they’re not sheep (cf 25.32 again). And thirdly, αἰώνιος simply does not mean “lasting forever”, but “lasting an age”. So the κόλασις doesn’t quite seem to be our notion of “hell”. It’s a chastisement that lasts for ages and ages. But this is not intended to be somehow numerical.

        What will it take to get us to start talking like we’re actually Christians— people who take their basic way of looking at the world from the Scriptures?— who think of the world and of life and death in the Scripture’s terms? Whose fundamental cosmology is therefore the one in the Bible, not the one in Thomas Aquinas or Billy Graham? How can we become people who let the Bible shape our minds and our thinking in its own terms and in its own way? Because the answers we seek from logic can’t get to the heart of the matter, and therefore will always leave a residue of unease.

        People never hear the Good News today because we never proclaim it. We teach about how people can be sure that they’re “going to heaven”; how they can avoid “going to hell”, whether a “good God” would ever torment people forever.

        You cannot, and you will never resolve the argument about whether God will utterly condemn us or not, though, because however good the argument is, there’s a paradox at the bottom of it. We can’t resolve a paradox! Is God compassionate, or just?

        “Who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?” (Rom. 11.34).

        “Who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?” (1Co 2.16a).

        “But we have the mind of the Messiah” (1Co 2.16b).

        So in the face of the paradox of justice and love, we proclaim only the Messiah’s good news!— not our ideas about the “goodness” of some abstract “God”.

        Ok then.

        If the argument is not about the “cosmology” in which we view “life after death”, but only about whether a “good God” can logically punish people forever and ever with “ECT”, etc— then are we not talking as if Jesus Christ had never come or, if he did (we are “Christians”, after all!)— as if his coming had actually had no effect on the logical question at all, and that the latter could be discussed without reference to him? Our justification theories may make him the guy in the ticket booth, but the logical question is about the price of the ticket. We assume there’s a ticket, and maybe we think he can sell us one; but it has to be paid for, and he does not set the price.

        That is not the God Jesus revealed, and we utterly ignore the God whom Jesus did reveal. We can’t answer, in such terms, what was God’ project for creation was, ever since the beginning, and where he’s going with it?. And none of those things can be approached by logic or are even known to it. So we can’t avoid the question of cosmology, because Jesus can’t be known in those terms, and those are the terms that are both relevant and necessary if a Christian is to answer to the question of what we may ultimately expect!

        So— cosmology: Well, it strikes me that a christian without heaven or hell— or to put it in other terms, without “eternal bliss” or “eternal conscious torment” is another fish without a bicycle. If we’re not talking about Jesus, we’re talking about some other God, not the actually existing God who made himself known in Jesus, who was fundamentally embedded in the world as the prophets see it.

        When we talk about the Last Judgment, then, we have to talk about the Gospels.

        And in the theologies of ALL the evangelists, which rely on that same cosmology, God manifested his ultimate Judgment of the world on the Cross. Not in general, not in the abstract, but on the Cross!

        Jesus responded to the High Priest, “I AM [the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One], and you will see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven” (Mk 14.62).

        What was he talking about? When would the High Priest see all that? At some point in the distant future? No, because “the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory” is something about which Jesus had already said, “this generation shall not pass, till all these things occur” (13.30, 36). So he was saying to the High Priest, you will see it yourself, starting now!

        And just so we don’t miss the point, when Matthew and Luke quote Mark, they sharpen it up. They have Jesus replying to the High Priest—

        —”From this point on (ἀπ᾿ ἄρτι)— you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven’” (Mt 26.64).

        —”From now on (ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν)— the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of God’s power” (Lk 22.69).

        In all three Gospels, what “this generation”, including the High Priest, is going to see— the thing that fulfills Jesus’ “from this point on”— is precisely the torture and crucifixion of the Son of Man. That, he is saying, is the enthronement of the Son of Man (Dn 7.13) for which you’ve waited so long. That is the ‘coming’ of Yhwh (Zc 14.5) ‘on the clouds of heaven’ (Dn 7.13 again). And that is the answer to your question about whether we shall be saved!

        The lifegiving Cross is itself the final judgment on all the nations.

        And of course it’s the final judgment on everybody, but none of this is about individuals. For us personally the only relevant question is, How do we align with the Son of Man who comes? And he tells us how, in Mt 25.31ff.

        We really have to let it sink in. All four Gospels teach that the Cross is God’s FINAL disposition toward the world. Don’t we forget that? Have we ever even known it? Or do we not rather tend imagine that Jesus on the Cross was the good cop but when he returns, he will come as the bad cop that he really is, in oder to execute Divine Judgment according to “Justice”? Jesus is just a clerk, and Divine Justice is not so friendly! (I actually do think that is more or less how we’ve been taught). And we don’t even think about this in scriptural terms, but in terms of how we may dodge (for the most part), the logic of Divine Justice. But Jesus on the Cross IS Divine Justice!

        We debate whether the “good God” will be a bad cop forever and ever, or will really turn out to be a good cop after all, without even the slightest reference to anything Jesus is or did. Of course, having freed ourselves to some degree from penal sustitutionary and other justification theories, our logic reassures us these days that a “good God” can’t possibly be bad. So we’re inclined to something called “universalism”., but that renders Jesus otiose Or if we prefer to stress “justice” or some such— our logical “God” is like that!— then we limit his salvation.

        What i’m saying, then, is that the One and only God we know, and the One and only salvation we have is the one revealed in Jesus Christ— and Jesus revealed God’s ultimate *judgment* not by demonstrating the ontological necessity of salvation but by suffering the Cross.

        So— is he who is coming the same as he who came?

        Sometimes i think we don’t seem to be so sure. We persist in arguing that an abstract “God” abstractly “condemns” “sinners” to “ECT” because— well, logic seems to demand it!— Or else we deny that our “God” could really be that way!

        Don’t we see, don’t we understand, that the Hebrew Scriptures and the Good News of Jesus the Messiah have abolished this whole way of looking at things, crossed it out, canceled it, made it irrelevant?

        Why do we persist in arguing as if we could dispense with the Bible’s point of view, argue abstractly about “God” outside of the Bible, and pretend the cosmos we inhabit or the religion we believe in is adequately described by these abstractions? How is it that we can determine “universalism” or not, without reference to Jesus himself, who is, and did, and revealed God’s good news— news of the arrival (ἤγγικεν, Mk 1.14) of God’s reign— with the same immediacy that he announced the arrival of Judas (ἤγγικεν, 14.42-43) just as he stepped out of the bushes to betray him?

        We are unbelievers; therefore, we are terrified; therefore, we invent arguments of “universalism”.

        it’s a category mistake. I’m suggesting to check your cosmology! What “God” do we worship??!

        Forgive me for taking up so much of your time.

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        • Tom Talbott says:

          Hello again, John:

          In your long post above, you wrote, “There’s a paradox between mercy and justice, the more unresolvable the more you take it seriously.” So even as you previously asked me to show you “where the Bible even once talks about going to heaven, or about heaven as the destiny of the righteous,” I would now like to return the favor and ask you, “Where in the Bible do you find even a hint of such a paradox?” I ask this because I think I can point to texts that explicitly teach that no such paradox exists.

          Thanks in advance for your reply.

          Like

        • Tom Talbott says:

          John,

          Because you have not yet had the time (something I can fully appreciate) or the inclination to respond to the question I posed a day or so ago, I thought I would clarify it a bit further. I previously asked, “Where in the Bible do you find even a hint of a paradox between divine justice and divine mercy?” Concerning that supposed paradox, you go on to write: “You cannot, and you will never resolve the argument about whether God will utterly condemn us or not, though, because however good the argument is, there’s a paradox at the bottom of it. We can’t resolve a paradox! Is God compassionate, or just?”

          But again I wonder where the paradox here supposedly lies. Would you deny that God’s compassion is altogether just, or that his justice is altogether merciful and compassionate? Remarkably, you follow your remarks that I quote above with Paul’s question in Romans 11:34: “Who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?” But the whole point of Romans 11 is that no paradox exists here at all. Although we humans may see a paradox here insofar as we have not “known the mind of the Lord,” Paul’s own point in Romans 11 is just this: God’s severity toward the disobedient, his judgment of sin, even his willingness to blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the disobedient, are expressions of a more fundamental quality, namely, that of mercy, which is itself an expression of his purifying love. The specific point that Paul made in Romans 11 was that, even though the unbelieving Jews had become in some sense “enemies of God” (11:28), they nonetheless became “disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy” (11:31-NIV). But the general principle (of which the specific point was but an instance) is even more glorious: “For God has imprisoned all in disobedience [as an expression of his justice] so that he may be merciful to [them] all” (11:32).

          Finally, you wrote: “So in the face of the paradox of justice and love, we proclaim only the Messiah’s good news!— not our ideas about the ‘goodness’ of some abstract ‘God.’” But did not the Messiah himself tell us something about what this good news is when he declared, “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [or drag even as a fisherman might drag fish into a boat with a net] all men to myself” (John 12:32—RSV)? And did not Paul likewise proclaim the Messiah’s good news with the following words? “Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all [humans], so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for [them] all” (Rom 5:18). The whole point of such a parallel structure, so typical of Paul, is to identify a single group of individuals and to make two parallel statements about that single group of individuals, and the practical effect is therefore to eliminate any possibility of ambiguity. The very ones who came under condemnation, as a result of the first Adam’s act of disobedience, will eventually be brought to justification and life, as a result of the second Adam’s (or the Messiah’s) one act of obedience. So is that not also a statement about “the Messiah’s good news”?

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          • John burnett says:

            I agree with what you say, Tom, and as i think i also said, Fr Deinhammer’s arguments are very nicely put. And after all, I too am a Christian, so i like all this.

            But to answer your question, some verses that immediately spring to mind are Ps 89.30-32, toward the end of a hymn to Yhwh as Israel’s king (89.1-18), and the subsequent solemn recitation of his “unbreakable” covenant with David (89.19-37)—

            30 If his children forsake my law
            and do not walk according to my ordinances,
            31 if they violate my statutes
            and do not keep my commandments,
            32 then I will punish their transgression with the rod
            and their iniquity with the whip . . . .

            He’s already made it clear that he intends to tell of God’s faithfulness and mercy to all generations (89.1), though. So, in line with this, after the above verses on punishment, he adds—

            33 But I will not remove my steadfast love from him,
            or be false to my faithfulness.

            This verse places the Exile Israel had experienced (89.38ff) within the context of God’s faithfulness— as Paul does also, in all the ways you say. This rather radical, but they have to do it, because only this perspective can finally make any sense at all of what Israel had suffered.

            Now, the argument you’re making is a good one, but really, it seems to presuppose— rightly but secretly— the very thing that we most need to surface. Which is, the revelation of the God of the Covenant, or rather of God in Christ. Your argument for ultimate mercy doesn’t really rest on a rational working out of logical principles, but on a prior encounter, whose implications you’re working out in generic terms. But without that encounter, I just don’t think the matter is so obvious or certain as logic can claim— nor do i think people are very certain of it, however clear the logic is.

            For the fact is that philosophers have understood the ultimate fate of the human person in all sorts of ways based on their various presuppositions, not having heard of or trusted in what God did in his Messiah.

            And more especially to the point, I think we’re having this conversation because Luther and Calvin themselves started from a scholastic understanding not dissimilar in method to yours, rather than from a more proplerly biblical one. They sought a coercive logic that could first convict people of their need for salvation, and then prove to them that they had found salvation, once they executed the requisite contract. They thought of Rm 1.18-32 as pointing to a universally valid “natural philosophy”, which reflected and confirmed their Scholastic understanding of “God”. So even though they were Christians, mercy and justice remained for them a paradox they couldn’t overcome, and their forensic and retributive presuppositions demanded the savior basically save us from God. So the paradox is eternal; it’s the paradox of wrath and redemption.

            This is not to deny that Luther and Calvin etc had encountered Christ— although in some ways maybe they really hadn’t!— but only to say that they got into theological trouble precisely because they had tried to start from a “natural philosophy” that they thought they’d found in Romans 1, which slotted nicely with their Scholastic pre-commitments.

            So what i’m saying is that if our argument is about “God”, apart from and without reference to Christ— in other words, if we speak only of a generic, abstract “God”— Aquinas’s “Deus in genere”, and not of the Trinity revealed in Christ— then it seems to me that we could come to multiple conclusions, depending on presuppositions. And Job (the character in the book, not the book as a whole) could provide a good example of why someone might not think God was ultimately merciful or in fact even just! Maybe he’s just capricious! The Book of Job is of course about Israel and her suffering, but Job himself is cast as a Gentile and not as an Israelite because he’s also an image of the human experience of God outside the Covenant. How would we, how could we know that God is faithful or just? How could we expect or demand mercy from him? For in fact we do observe punishment and mercy in this life, and in history, and to the extent that we attribute both to God, what’s to guarantee that either judgment or mercy supersedes or underlies the whole show in any final way?

            I have tried to teach seminaries in Africa, and i’ve done a lot of popular teaching in America, and the conviction that’s amassed in me in all of this is that today we need to be really clear that we’re not offering a philosophy of “God”, however good and valid. We’re inviting people to trust what God has done in his Messiah, for there and only there— not in logic— is the revelation of his goodness secured. In other words, the conviction that settles the heart comes only by a real encounter with Jesus, the Messiah, God’s son, and not by logical demonstrations of universalism. Which are useful, but apart from the encounter, there always seems to be room for doubt.

            So we do need to unpack for others the movement of Spirit that passed through Jesus, into his disciples, and out into the world, as the Scriptures disclose it, but ultimately it’s only the Holy Spirit himself who reveals “the glory of God on the face of the Messiah” (2Co 4.6).

            The arguments you mount are good ones, but inherently one does have to deal with the paradox of God’s judgment and mercy. And it’s only in Christ that this paradox is really resolved, and only in him that we find the kind of (re)assurance that people are looking for. Arguments for universalism, however thought-provoking and even valid and even interesting, are ultimately powerless, even if they provide a measure of hope for those in darkness and the shadow of death.

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      • cephyr13 says:

        Tom,

        I believe I may be able to answer John’s question and resolve the matter.

        What we call heaven, the Jews and Jesus called Paradise. And what we call hell, they called Judgment or Punishment. These are key distinctions that have a lot of people confused about “heaven” and “hell.” And that’s precisely why you never see God saying He’ll take anyone to heaven. Jesus did, however, say that the thief on the cross would be with Him in Paradise that day. So the Bible does say that Jesus takes us to “heaven” (Paradise).

        Heaven referred to the sky, to space, and to the spirit realm; placed we cannot go as humans. But the third one is distinctly different than Paradise, which is where we will be with God in the spirit realm. Ancient cultures, including the Ancient Hebrews, believed that the spirit realm was an integral part of the earth, but one that we cannot see. Jesus said to Pilot that His kingdom is not of this earth, meaning not of the physical realm. It is a spiritual kingdom of believers.

        The Kingdom of God / Kingdom of Heaven is referring to a kingdom that Jesus brought to earth when He came, but it is a spiritual kingdom of believers. Since we all have a spirit, and we’re born again of spirit, as Jesus says, we are being born into His kingdom in the spirit realm, moving from death to life in the spirit realm.

        Paul says in 1 Cor 6:10
        nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

        The translators tend to translate our English versions in ways that we can better understand them and in ways that fit their doctrinal beliefs. In Greek, that passage can also be translated as …will not continue inheriting the kingdom (see Jonathan Mitchell’s New Testament translation). There are several places where translators render verses in past tense, instead of present tense, to make it easier for us to read or because it fits their doctrine. Jonathan Mitchell’s translation does a great job of showing that. Mixed a bit of his translation options in the verse above if you check the reference. It’s not as good an example as other verses.

        When Paul talks about living in the spirit or the flesh, he’s talking about going back and forth from living in the kingdom to living in the flesh. He’s saying that when we’re living in the spirit, we’re living in our inheretance, in the spirit realm kingdom, allowing the Holy Spirit to be our contentment, peace, and joy. But when we’re living in the flesh, we’re depending on worldly things like lying, murder, thievery, etc., to make us happy and content.

        So, going to “heaven” isn’t in the Bible because it’s not what Jews call heaven. They call it Paradise. Jesus brought His kingdom to Earth right after He was crucified. I tend to speculative think He handed the keys to the kingdom to us on Pentecost, but I can’t say for sure, of course.

        That should answer John’s questions about heaven being our destiny. It seems he’s focusing on an Earth-based humanity forever rather than moving on to Paradise. While we think of it as a holding tank, Jews and Jesus did not. That’s also why even the Muslims believe in Paradise (not the Jihadists’ 72 virgin Paradise, but a garden paradise where we’ll be with God forever).

        I would also submit that Christian psychologists who collect and study Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) say that the evidence for life after death and heaven (Paradise) and hell (a state of judgment/corrective punishment) is overwhelming. They wanted to call them after-death experiences originally, but the secular-dominated field of psychology wouldn’t allow it. Another interesting distinction is that every single Atheist, across the board, who has an NDE and is resuscitated is immediately a very loving person, very humble, knows there’s a God, and serves Him. They even say that this world is fake, like a virtual reality, because that place they were in felt far, far more real than this reality ever has. It seems that when we’re in our true form–the spirit–we have a much better ability to sense reality.

        Hope this helps. I’ll post another reply to you, Tom, that will address one or two parts of your response to Dr. Stump.

        Like

        • Tom Talbott says:

          Although I like much of what you have said in the above post, I might add that several texts speak of the original heavens and earth being destroyed even as a new heaven and earth come into being. So even as the saints may continue to live on an earth of some kind or another, it may not be the same earth upon which we now live and may not even have the same laws of nature. As we read in 2 Peter 13:10, for example, “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” Or, as verses 12 and 13 of the same chapter put it, “The heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat . . . Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.”

          Similarly, we read this in Revelation 21:1: “Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.” That seems clearly to imply that the new earth will be very different from the original earth.

          The more important point, however, is that, according those who call themselves “Christian universalists,” all humans will eventually be reconciled to God. For my own part, therefore, it seems like a relatively minor issue, as I know you will agree, whether someone describes this reconciliation as God bringing all of the reconciled to heaven, bringing them all to paradise, or eventually destroying all sin and death in some other final way. Neither do I think it problematic to employ Eleonore Stump’s own language in an article discussing her own understanding of these issues.

          Anyway, thanks for a helpful response.

          Like

          • cephyr13 says:

            Tom,

            Thanks for the reply. To help you understand me my perspective a little better, I’m a Christian Universalist (we’ve spoken briefly on the Universalism Invitation & Debate Forum earlier this year) and I suppose I’d describe myself as an eclectic Christian, as well. I don’t ascribe to denominations. That would box in my beliefs and stifle the objective search for truth. Not sure if that will help in this brief conversation here but there it is.

            You mentioned prophecy.

            N.T. Wright says that America is the only country that believes in the Futurist/Dispensational interpretation of prophecy, which takes a very literal view of prophetic books, much like you explained the verses you cited. Wright says the rest of the Christian world has quite a different view of prophecy–one that does not believe in a future tribulation. But there are always different views in the world, so I doubt he meant that there’s only one view for the rest of the world. I think he probably meant a dominate view.

            He also talks about the fact that all prophetic books of the Bible are written in Hebrew poetic style, employing a mixture of literal and figurative language, as well as word pictures. I’m sure you’re familiar with the Lake of Fire word picture, which is believed to have come from the Wisdom of Solomon word picture of the gold and silver refining process.

            Wright, and Semetic Language experts, speak about how much people in the Near and Middle East love poetry. My Muslim friend in Iran said the same thing. So as I learned more and more about the symbolic language of the prophecies in the Bible, I started to see more eye to eye with N.T. Wright regarding how he interprets some of the symbolic language of prophecy. While I believe he and I both see prophecy as having been unfolding over a very long time, I’m sure we have differing views on many parts of it. So what I’m about to share isn’t an off-the-wall view.

            The new heaven and earth are figurative, in my opinion, as are the melting of the elements. Wright talks about that, as well, in some of his interviews or lectures I’ve seen online. The elements refer to the fundimental way that man used to run the Earth before Jesus, using Satan to gain power and ruling in tyrannical ways. Melting refers to the refining, purifying process of those elements. It’s a figurative representation of Jesus bringing His kingdom to Earth and Christians in that Kingdom slowly, over time, changing the world. We live in a vastly different world now than 2,000 years ago, all thanks to Jesus and His Kingdom of Heaven He brought us.

            With that in mind, I don’t see a problem with the verses you presented. Also, the prophetic books are built in bifids and chiasms, so they’re not necessarily in chronological order. Revelation, for example, has two chiasms, and in the middle, John is told to “prophesy again,” which is the point at which it goes from the prophecies about the spiritual side of things to the more physical representations of the same time periods much of the first half just prophesied about. So, just because the new heaven and new earth are at the end of Revelation doesn’t mean they’re at the end of the prophecies.

            Hopefully, I explained that we’ll enough. I don’t want to take up too much of your time. You’re very kind to respond to comments.

            Also, I just read that your wife has a medical condition. Is it okay for me to ask what condition it is?

            Thanks and have a good evening.

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    • cephyr13 says:

      John,

      You contend that mercy and justice are at odds in the Bible. I’ll give my perspective.

      One who is not loving, has no love for justice or mercy. They might be just at times, but ultimately, they’re selfish in their motives if they’re not loving. Love respects others and cares for them, so justice for others is a natural product of love.

      Love is also merciful. And here’s where the contention lies. Can justice and mercy both be accomplished?

      I used to say that justice is subordinate to love, but I believe there’s a different way to look at it. No one escapes justice. Not Christians, not Atheists; no one. While God may liberate us from our sins, not holding them against us, that doesn’t mean that we will not receive consequences (justice) for them. Often, Christians receive the consequences of their sins. God chastizes those He loves. Justice causes us to be humbled, falling back in line with God’s ways more easily.

      The wages of sin is death, or more specifically, a perishing state of being. If we die without moving from death into life, or judgment into life, then we end up in a perishing state of being in the spirit realm. But in that place, we’re broken and humbled. That’s when Jesus comes to minister to us and we willingly accept His salvation. (I’m not sure if you’re a Universalist or not, but that’s not important for my main point.) We see this in 1 Peter 3:18-4:6, where Jesus preaches to the spirits in prison from the time of the Flood, culminating in their salvation in 4:6.

      The justice for Christians is interesting. Jesus says we will all be salted with fire (purification), and Paul says we will all give an account before God. In the specific subset of confirmed-dead Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) where people come out of body, go through a tunnel to a light, we see the same thing happen repeatedly. The Light is God, and He causes the people to relive every instance in their life where they harmed another person, except this time, they relive it from the other person’s perspective, seeing through their eyes and feeling their feelings. It’s the ultimate justice because it’s having exactly what was done to other done back to us. This people experience those events all at the same time, so it happens very quickly.

      God doesn’t do it to be mean or punish, because when it’s done, the people say, “That was so bad, so wrong.” Then God comes close and says, “No, no…not good or bad, not right or wrong. Just a lesson learned.” That’s when people say all of their shame and fear and everything else drops and they feel God’s love hit them like a ton of bricks and they never want to leave that place again.

      That’s when their heart is healed fully and they’re purified.

      So, mercy is shown in that we Christians do not go to hell, but justice is shown in that we receive back everything we dealt out to others.

      There is no contention between the two. The grace we receive is being saved from our perishing state. That’s all I can see in scripture.

      I know you may not take NDEs as anything important to consider, but the Christian psychologists who record and study them say that they are overwhelmingly evidence of the spirit realm, life after death, and God. That’s something to be considered.

      Like

      • Tom Talbott says:

        I clicked on the reply button after your response to John Burnett because that was the only way I could figure out how to produce the headline “Reply to cephyr13.” Hee, hee. Anyway, in your latest response to me above, you wrote the following: “N.T. Wright says that America is the only country that believes in the Futurist/Dispensational interpretation of prophecy, which takes a very literal view of prophetic books, much like you explained the verses you cited. Wright says the rest of the Christian world has quite a different view of prophecy–one that does not believe in a future tribulation.”

        Now the interesting thing here, my friend, is that my parents did indeed have me attending a dispensationalist church during my teen and high school years, one whose pastor was a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, which is well-known for its dispensationalism. But the pastor of my wife’s Orthodox Presbyterian Church, who performed the service in which my wife and I were married, persuaded me that dispensationalism was sheer nonsense, especially the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture; and I have had virtually no interest in taking dispensationalism seriously since then. Neither do I see any reason why my remarks above about 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation 21:1 should commit me to some kind of dispensationalism. So I guess the bottom line is that I do indeed take the idea of a re-creation of heaven and earth more literally than you do.

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        • Tom Talbott says:

          Oops again, I see that the headline I was looking for never gets posted anyway. So how stupid can I get?

          Like

  2. Robert Deinhammer, S.J. says:

    The idea that God would have to respond to anything in the world, even if only by respecting human choices, is problematic because then God is thought of as a being that competes with the world. If nothing can be without God and everything depends on him in an unsurpassable way, then there is no room for such reacting or respecting.

    Faith in Jesus Christ is about the world being created in the eternal love between Father and Son, our communion with God. At the latest in death, the false gods are knocked out of our hands. Therefore, God does not have to respect our unbelief.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

      Fr D, could you elaborate further please on your last sentence “God does not have to respect our unbelief.”

      Like

      • Robert Deinhammer, S.J. says:

        Unbelief amounts to saying no to the Christian message and trusting in false gods, that is, idolizing worldly reality. At the latest with death, the false gods are knocked out of our hands. There is no possibility to cling to false gods for all eternity. Therefore, God does not have to respect man’s sin or unbelief. God does not “respect” anything at all because nothing can exist without Him. But through the “purgatory of death,” God separates all men from their sin and unbelief. That is why Rom. 6:7 says, “For he who has died has been freed from sin.”

        Faith means letting go of false gods already in this life and trusting in God alone as He has revealed Himself to us in Jesus Christ. In this faith, one no longer lives under the power of fear for oneself, but in the freedom of the children of God. And only within this faith one can be certain that God will save all of humanity.

        Liked by 3 people

  3. Robert Deinhammer, S.J. says:

    The idea that God would have to respond to anything in the world, even if only by respecting human choices, is problematic because then God is thought of as a being that competes with the world. If nothing can be without God and everything depends on him in an unsurpassable way, then there is no room for such reacting or respecting.

    Faith is about the world being created in the eternal love between Father and Son, our communion with God. At the latest in death, the false gods are knocked out of our hands. Therefore, God does not have to respect our unbelief.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Robert Deinhammer, S.J. says:

      This view, however, does NOT imply determinism.

      That the world and everything in it is God’s creation means that nothing can exist without God. The reality of the world is constituted by its complete being related to God. Also evil and suffering are created in this sense and cannot be without God. But because of the one-sidedness of the creatureliness relation one can never think from God and derive facts in the world from him, because there is no ontological basis for it. We conceive of God only that which is different from him, which refers to him and cannot be without him. There is no world and God overlapping system. Therefore there is also no opposition between human freedom and divine omnipotence. It is crucial to understand the world-God-relationship relational-ontologically and not causally.

      See for this approach

      Click to access TheologyandSp3.pdf

      Liked by 4 people

  4. Counter-Rebel says:

    “…Would that qualify as a case where “God unilaterally brings it about that all human beings are brought to heaven”? That is not how I would ever employ the term “unilaterally” in the present context.”

    Yes, it would. The author believes universalism is a metaphysical necessity, as do I. This implies that *some* determinism may be necessary. If determinism is completely ruled out, then given indeterminism, one could indeterministically reject God forever. (Compare: a truly indeterministic coin could land on tails every time. Spare me the “it’s unlikely,” as unlikely does not contravene the possibility.) Even though indeterminism is necessary for a creature’s initial free choice(s), at some point, if God is repeatedly rejected, the creature will deterministically choose God.

    The author is confused in saying he affirms libertarian free will (LFW) but then later saying freedom “moral freedom never requires a power to act otherwise…”. LFW by definition requires alternative possibilities! He is also confused in saying LFW is incompatible with indeterminism. LFW requires indeterminism. Not in the sense of randomness, but in the sense of not-determinism…alternatives. As a hard universalist, I must affirm a broad account of libertarian free will where sometimes, a free choice can be determined so long as a prior free choice was undetermined. (I’ve quoted W. Matthews Grant on this point.) I affirm, with Sergius Bulgakov, that the path of a good without sin and the path of a sinful departure followed by eventual union with God turn out to be equivalent. The destination is determined (and so “unilaterally brought about,” by definition) but the path is undetermined.

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    • Tom Talbott says:

      Hi Counter-Rebel,

      It looks as if you and I agree on the metaphysical necessity of universalism. But I need to clarify a couple of points. You write: “This [the metaphysical necessity of universalism] implies that *some* determinism may be necessary. If determinism is completely ruled out . . .”; then, a little later you write: “The author is confused in saying he affirms libertarian free will (LFW) but then later saying ‘moral freedom never requires a power to act otherwise…’ LFW by definition requires alternative possibilities! He is also confused in saying LFW is incompatible with indeterminism.” Let’s take up each of these issues in turn.

      First, I have merely pointed out that the libertarian conception of free will is incompatible with the thesis of determinism. So what is the thesis of determinism? According to this thesis, I point out, “Every event that occurs in time, including every choice that you or I might make, will be the product of causal conditions that lie either in the distant past before we were born or in eternity itself. Every choice that you or I might make, in other words, will be the product of conditions over which we have never had any control whatsoever.” Now as a matter of elementary logic, to deny that every event has a sufficient cause is hardly to deny that some events (or even that most events) have a sufficient cause. Nor is it to rule out determinism entirely. A universe without any determinism at all would be utter chaos.

      Second, I have never stated that moral freedom never requires a power to act otherwise; to the contrary, I have consistently insisted that moral freedom always requires such a power whenever we choose, as we often do during our earthly lives, in a context of ambiguity, ignorance, and misperception. But thanks for the ellipsis at the end of your quotation of my own words. It shows that you have left out the rest of the sentence where I say “unless” followed by a general description of cases where moral freedom emphatically does require a power to act otherwise. Finally, I have never asserted (without qualification) that moral freedom is incompatible with indeterminism. I have merely pointed out that the philosophical literature includes some important arguments for this conclusion. Are you unfamiliar with these arguments?

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  5. cephyr13 says:

    Tom,

    You mentioned free will and its opposite. I believe there’s a middle ground. Take free will and determinism completely off the table and just think in terms of influence. We have a will and the ability to make choices in accordance with our will. We have outside influences, as well, such as God and others. We also have our shaping, which causes us to make decisions the way we do.

    God determines where and to whom we’re born, the religion we’re in, etc. All of those are deciding factors in how we’re shaped. Paul says we’re clay in the Potter’s hand. So God shapes us as He wants, according to Paul–some vessels are prepared for honor and some for destruction. That’s one point of influence He has.

    Then we have David in Psalm 139:16 saying, “All of my days were written in Your book before I lived even one.”

    People might say that’s strictly God foretelling the future. But when we couple that with Proverbs 16:9, it says, “A man’s heart plans his path, but the Lord directs His steps.”

    That displays both choice and God’s influence. But the fact that God’s directing our steps means He’s influencing our life, which means in Ps 139, He’s foretelling the path He’s going to take us down, which is predestination to a degree. He authors our life.

    But because He doesn’t make our choices for us, our choices do have meaning. We are responsible for them since we have a part in them. And we do learn from them. Think of it like this: if we’re forced to go through something we really don’t want to, like poverty or being in New York on 9/11, the sheer experience of going through it causes us to learn many things, growing our heart. Not that God forces us, per se, but you get the point.

    Here’s how I show a mix of choice and influence:

    I once wanted my son to wear an orange shirt, but he hates orange. So I picked the orange shirt and two other shirts from his closet that he likes even less than the orange one. I asked his which of those shirts he wants to wear, and as predicted, he chose the orange shirt. I was able to influence his choice and predict it because I know Him so well and because I had a hand in shaking him. I believe God does the same with us.

    When it comes to will and choice, it has to do with who has the power or intellect. Whoever had the most power or intellect will get their will accomplished over someone less powerful and intelligent.

    When the Babylonians sacked Israel, Israel had no choice in the matter. They were weaker, so they were forced into captivity against their will.

    God is more powerful and more intelligent than us. That’s most likely why He says in scripture that He always accomplished what He purposes.

    I don’t believe free will can truly be free with verses like the ones I mentioned above. But will and influence are perfectly fine in light of those verses. We influence people all the time. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with God doing it either.

    Hope that all made sense.

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  6. Tom Talbott says:

    My thanks to John Burnett and cephyr13 for your responses. Unfortunately, I will be tied up all day Sunday with, among other things, house guests all afternoon. So I won’t be able to read carefully all of this material until tomorrow (Monday) at the earliest. But I’ll get back to you as soon as possible.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Tom Talbott says:

    Okay John, I suspect that you and I have no serious or substantial theological disagreements. It still puzzles me, however, why you would continue to speak of a paradox between “God’s judgment and mercy” in your final paragraph. For just what is the paradox here that supposedly requires a resolution? Does not the very text you cite, namely Psalm 89:19-37, show that there is no paradox here at all? Or consider Hebrews 12:5-6 where we read: “My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when you are punished by him, for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves and chastises every child whom he accepts.” Then, lest anyone should miss the point, the author adds a further clarification in verse 7 concerning why God disciplines, punishes, or otherwise corrects his own loved ones: “God is treating you as children,” he points out, “for what child is there whom a parent does not discipline?”

    Isn’t that just what one would expect from a perfectly loving God who loves you and me far more than even the best human father might love his own child?

    Liked by 1 person

    • John burnett says:

      Yes, judgment and mercy are reconciled, or two sides of the same coin, or mutually integrated— however you want to put it— in those passages. But my point is that those passages belong to the context of the Covenant, most especially as it eventuates in Christ, and that only because of this prior foundation, could Israel or even we see that. If we’re not thinking of the Covenant, and not thinking of Christ within the Covenant, then we have a conundrum— for He whom we confess to be Judge of the Universe says both, “Come, blessed of my Father” (Mt 25.34) and “Depart from me, ye accursed ones, into everlasting fire” (25.41). And these are unreconcilable. In other words, outside the Covenant framework that we no longer presuppose, resolution of the paradox is far less certain. Or rather, God really can seem to be explicitly infernalist and threatening. That’s why people get so messed up about “eternal damnation”— about this very passage, in fact!

      Of course the situation isn’t helped by translating aiōnios as “everlasting” or “eternal”, which is not only just wrong, but also easily presupposes the non-Covenant perspective in which we’re trying to reason our way out of the possibility that we just might end up in “eternal hell”, another thing the Bible nowhere talks about even in this passage! But supporting that claim would take more exegesis than we can do at the moment.

      So that was why I asked about the cosmology. We need to get the biblical context straight, for our departure from it is what generated the problem you’re trying to answer in the first place. The Bible does not, in fact, talk about going to heaven (or to hell). So then whether God is going to send anyone to hell become a moot point!

      And btw, “Paradise” is not “heaven”, and Jesus is not saying to the terrorist on his right, “This day you’ll be with me in heaven” (cp Lk 23.43), but in biblical terms something more like, “For you and me, buddy, the Exile that Adam suffered is over, and what he lost— even life itself— will now be restored.”

      I phrased this point as a question— “where does the Bible even once talk about going to heaven, or about heaven as the destiny of the righteous?”— in order to draw attention to the fact that we only assume that the Bible speaks that way, before we philosophize as if it were correct. The assumption is erroneous and itself generates the mischief that we’re trying to deal with. It used to seem perfectly normal that God would punish forever. But we now find that idea repugnant, unreasonable, and intolerable and we’re trying to work our way out of it by rethinking the logic of our own ideas. Well, that has its value, but actually such ideas never were God’s plan for each person, for the human race, or for the cosmos generally, so what’s the point? Or— How might rethinking this stuff in actual biblical terms impact not just the answers we give but even the questions we ask?

      Speaking personally, when i finally clicked to the fact that Psalm 72 and Revelation 22 weren’t just poetry but actually a vision of what life under the Covenant, or of what the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham, to bless all the nations through his seed (Gn 12.3) would be like, I simply lost my uncertainty about heaven and my fear of hell. It’s simply not about that. The only question left is, how can we participate. I’m not doing a very good job, personally— and less than i even know!— but at least i know who to trust.

      If God doesn’t intend to take us to “heaven” for “eternity” but instead intends to raise us up, and the cosmos with us, in a new, heaven-infused Age under his direct heavenly rule (basileia)— that is, if we really take the Bible’s cosmic and eschatological vision seriously and start thinking (and teaching) along its lines, rather than talking about the fates described by a popular cosmology that has more to do with Dante,Neoplatonism, and Romanticism than with Scripture— would it even be possible for us to ask the abstract questions we tend to have, or at least to ask them in the same way?

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      • Tom Talbott says:

        Thanks John. That was helpful, and I think I understand your perspective a little better now. You wrote: “If we’re not thinking of the Covenant, and not thinking of Christ within the Covenant, then we have a conundrum— for He whom we confess to be Judge of the Universe says both, “Come, blessed of my Father” (Mt 25.34) and ‘Depart from me, ye accursed ones, into everlasting fire’ (25.41). And these are irreconcilable.”

        Now I can certainly see why someone might see an apparent paradox here. But that is only if one misunderstands completely the expression translated as “everlasting fire” (“aiōnios pyr”). As you suggest yourself, “translating ‘aiōnios’ as ‘everlasting’ or ‘eternal’” is just wrong” (at least in many contexts, I would add). For consider the reference to “the eternal God” in Rom 16:26, where “aiōnios” apparently signifies that which distinguishes the incorruptible God from the sources of change, corruption, and contingency in the created order. As Paul himself once put it, “What can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal” (2 Cor. 4:18). According to William Barclay in New Testament Words, therefore, “The essence of the word ‘aiōnios’ [in the present context] is that it is the word of the eternal order as contrasted with the order of this world; it is the word of deity as contrasted with humanity; essentially it is the word which can be properly applied to no one other than God. ‘Aiōnios’ is the word that describes nothing less and nothing other than the life of God” (p. 35). Or, as Barclay wrote in A Spiritual Autobiography, “Eternal punishment is . . . literally that kind of remedial [or corrective] punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give” (p. 66).

        In some contexts, of course, “aiōnios” literally means something like “age-enduring” or “that which pertains to an age.” But consider now Jude 7, where the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah is also described as an “eternal fire.” The point here is not that this fire literally burns forever without consuming these cities, nor is it that this fire continues to burn even today. The point is instead that this fire was a form of divine judgment upon these cities, a foreshadowing of eschatological judgment, and that its causal source lies, as Barclay points out, in the eternal God himself. And similarly for the eternal fire and the eternal punishment to which Jesus alluded in Matthew 25:41 and 46 respectively: like the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah, this fire will not be eternal in the sense that it will burn forever without consuming anything—without consuming, for example, that which is false within a person—and neither will it be eternal in the sense that it continues forever without accomplishing its corrective purpose. Both the fire and the punishment are eternal in the twofold sense that their causal source lies in the eternal God himself and that their corrective effects will literally endure forever. For anything that the eternal God does (or any specific action of his in the created order) is eternal in the sense that it is the eternal God who does it.

        Does that make any sense to you?

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        • John burnett says:

          sure, no argument there. all i’m saying is that we’d be greatly helped if we could start thinking about these things within biblical cosmological terms. I think many problems are generated by forgetting that. All that you’ve said here about aiōnios is part of that.

          If we don’t ourselves understand what God is up to, or understand it wrongly, then how can we argue with another misunderstanding? We ought to be thinking about what the Bible’s eschatology really is, and that doesn’t include going to heaven and going to hell. You’ll notice, btw, that neither of those is mentioned in the Creed.

          Like

        • cephyr13 says:

          Actually, I don’t think we can find a single use of aionios/aionion that means eternal in the Bible.

          The examples you used work well with what we know aionios/aionion means.

          We have a Third Century Syriac translation of the Apostles Creed. The Syrians didn’t have a word to fit the meaning of zoe aionios (Eternal life), so they had to spell out the meaning. They translated it as follows:

          “life of the world to come,” meaning life of the quality of the spirit realm after we die.

          We know that’s what “the world to come” means because that’s exactly how the Hebrews used the aionios equivalent of olam in the Old Testament.

          Olam literally means over the horizon. It’s a nomadic term from Abraham’s day. They didn’t know what was over the horizon until they got there. So olam basically means “a future time and place.” When used with death or end of life type subjects, it means the place we go after we die–the world to come.

          When we die, we will go to Paradise where Jesus says He will be with us. So we will get one with Him there, in relationship again like in the Garden, but even better. So if we have “life of the world to come” now, it means we have a relationship with Jesus now, like we will have there. It’s that quality of life. Well, not fully, because as a human, we can’t experience things nearly as vibrantly and intensely as we can when we’re in our spirit form. Watch confirmed-death Near-Death Experience testimonies. People who die and come out of body and go to heaven say it’s amazing. They say they feel absolutely awesome once they finish the Life Review and and Jesus heals them emotionally. It’s unlike anything they could feel here. They never want to leave once that place once that happens to them. But as humans, we just can’t feel things that vibrantly. But we’re still connected with Jesus and content and at peace as long as we live in the spirit.

          That’s what olam and aionios mean–in or of the world to come. Replace eternal with that in all of the verses you mentioned and you’ll see that it fits. It’s not the eternal God. It’s the God of the world to come.

          Hope that helps.

          I thought I responded to your last response to me but apparently I didn’t. Sorry about that. I’ll find it and respond.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Fr Aidan Kimel says:

            Do you have a link to the Syriac translation of the Apostles’ Creed? TIA.

            Like

          • cephyr13 says:

            No, I don’t have a link, but in Dr. Beecher’s book, History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution, he tells about it. If you get the ebook version, you can do a search for “Syriac” to find it quickly.

            Like

          • John burnett says:

            @caphyr13, you wrote, that `olam refers to the

            “life of the world to come,” meaning life of the quality of the spirit realm after we die.

            We know that’s what “the world to come” means because that’s exactly how the Hebrews used the aionios equivalent of olam in the Old Testament.

            Olam literally means over the horizon. It’s a nomadic term from Abraham’s day. They didn’t know what was over the horizon until they got there. So olam basically means “a future time and place.” When used with death or end of life type subjects, it means the place we go after we die–the world to come. “

            I’m not sure where you’re getting your information. Do you have any references you can share? I can read hebrew and have to admit i haven’t ever heard this.

            Koehler & Baumgartner’s 5-vol Hebrew-Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (HALOT) lists the etymology of `olam as “uncertain”, citing Jenni “ʿOlam” ZAW 64 (1952) (find it at doi/10.1515/zatw.1952.64.1.197).

            In any case, `olam does not mean “the place we go after we die”. It means a long duration of time, either in the past or the future. So for example, `ebed `olam, literally, a “slave of an age” means a “slave for life”. Elohē `olam means “everlasting God”. Beth `olam, literally “house of eternity” (Qo 12.5) is a poetic expression for the grave. It refers to an enduring state referring to past and future, or a long lapse of time. Methe `olam, the “dead of the age” means those long dead in Lm 3.6, Ps 143.3. It is synonymous with “generation and generation” in Dt 32.7. Mē-`olam means “from of old” or “from ancient times”, e.g., in Gn 6.4.

            Moreover, where we go after we die is not to any spiritual paradise but the She’ol, Hades in Greek, which we envision as the “land of the dead” but really it’s the grave.

            That’s why we await the resurrection. We’ll just be dead until then.

            Two places we will not be are “heaven” and “hell”.

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  8. cephyr13 says:

    As I mentioned, the Syriac translation of the Apostles Creed shows exactly what aionios/aionion means in relation to life and punishment/judgment. Buy the ebook History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution by Dr. Edward Beecher and search for Syriac. That’s the quickest way to find the reference.

    I didn’t say olam’s only meanings are “in the world to come” and “the place we go when we die.” I said it’s sometimes used that way in the OT.

    The word doesn’t necessarily mean a very long time, but it can refer to a period that’s a long period of time. It means a future time and place. Like I said, it literally means beyond the horizon, but it’s a figurative word. It’s a colloquialism.

    Here’s Olam on Ancient-Hebrew.org:

    Hebrew words used for space are also used for time. The Hebrew word qedem means “east” but is also the same word for the “past.” The Hebrew word olam literally means “beyond the horizon.” When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as “eternity” meaning a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is “l’olam va’ed” and is usually translated as “forever and ever,” but in the Hebrew it means “to the distant horizon and again” meaning “a very distant time and even further.”

    https://ancient-hebrew.org/definition/eternity.htm

    So, it can mean a very distant time, but again, in its colloquial form, when paired with judgment or punishment after death, it’s specifically talking about the spirit realm–the place we go when we die.

    In regard to soul sleep, you’re welcome to believe what you like. We see soul sleep in the OT, but Jesus spoke of a time that was coming when the dead would be resurrected, some to kolasis aionios and some to zoe aionios.

    We saw that happen in Matthew 27 when the tombs were opened and God’s people rose from the dead and showed themselves to the people in the Great City. We assume they ascended to Paradise after that. Their spirits rose, I’m sure, not their bodies.

    That’s most-likely why we see confirmed-death Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) now. Prior to Jesus’ crucifixion, everyone soul slept because they were under the Law of Sin & Death. Jesus overcame that and resurrected them.

    Liked by 1 person

    • John burnett says:

      Their spirits rose, I’m sure, not their bodies.

      Are you sure of that? —Matt. 27.52 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose . . . .”

      Resurrection of the body is sorta the point, isn’t it? Or do you think that Jesus arose to the “spirit realm” (of which the Bible says nothing)?

      The Hebrew word olam literally means “beyond the horizon.”

      Well as i say, i wonder where the website you quote gets that idea. Maybe they’re right, but neither BDB nor HALOT, the two major Hebrew lexicons used by all scholars everywhere, seem to have ever heard of it— and both say the etymology is uncertain. Perhaps it’s a popular etymology of some kind. But i don’t think any scholars would take that website very seriously.

      “le-ʿôlam va’ed” doesn’t mean “to the distant horizon and again”. To accept that, one would have allow circular arguing— but “to the age and beyond”. עוֹלָם ʿôlam, as i said, refers to a long expanse of time, and the basic idea in the word עד, “ʿeḏ” is is “continuous forward motion”, or as BDB glosses it, “perpetuity”, since it’s a noun. It’s derived from the verb עָדָה, ʿādāh, which means “pass on, advance”. It’s sometimes translated “eternity”, but due to Greek influence, our idea of “eternity” tends to be more like “timelessness” or “outside time”. So anyway, “unto the age and beyond”, or “unto the age and [to] eternity”. The corresponding greek terms are ἀεί aeí “always”, and αΐδιος aídios, “eternal, lasting forever”; and αἰῶν aiōn, “age”, and αἰώνιος aiōnios, “age-long” (sometimes translated “everlasting” but that’s not really correct).

      Part of the trouble here is that we don’t really think about “ages” the way the ancients did. An age was a very long time, but neither beginningless nor endless. So “forever” isn’t really a good translation, but we can think of “this age” and the “age to come” or, for example in Mark, the “oncoming Age”. That age doesn’t have an ending, but it does have a beginning. But otherwise, for the ancients, an “age”, whether in Hebrew or Greek, had to do with time as measured against the fixed stars; for Plato, it was the time it took for the sun to move backwards into a new constellation on the vernal equinox— about 27,000 years divided by 12, or 2,250 years, as in the “Age of Aquarius”. Plato calls the 27,000 year cycle a “Great Year”, and the sun remains in one zodiacal constellation for one “age”, twelve in all. The Babylonians used a 3600-year “age” which figures importantly in the OT.

      But as far as i’m aware, עוֹלָם ʿôlam never refers to a place, and it is certainly not “where we go when we die”. That is simply she’ol, the “Grave”. In english we sometimes speak of the “world to come” but that’s just confusion. I guess the term “world” used to have a possible connotation of like, “world-system”, but now it more or less means a planet or like “Wayne’s in his own world”.

      Liked by 2 people

      • cephyr13 says:

        No, I’m not sure the people rose only in their spirit bodies, but that makes the most logical sense, because we see absolutely no historical record of masses of people rising from the dead. Someone somewhere would’ve recorded that. I don’t buy that it went unnoticed, especially when it says they showed/manifested themselves to people in the holy city.

        However, you do make a good point. The Greek word used for body is typically talking about the physical body. It could have meant the spirit body, but I’m honestly not sure.

        It’s possible they rose physically, but how the heck did people rise from the dead if their body was basically dust? We are, of course, talking about a supernatural event, so one could attribute supernatural means to recreating a physical body for the people who rose. But there really are some big hurdles to get over historically for a physical resurrection. Jesus definitely rose bodily so I don’t have a problem with everyone raising bodily. I just can’t see why it wasn’t recorded. That would’ve freaked tons of people out and cause far more Jews and Romans to get saved, I’m guessing. But honestly, I don’t know.

        And no, personally, I don’t think it’s all about our physical bodies being resurrected. Our spirit body is the real us. And I assume it has powers similar to that of an angel when they manifest, except since we’ve been flesh at one time, when we manifest flesh, we have a certain authority that comes with that as humans that angels don’t have. And now that I think about it, if we, as spirits, could manifest physical bodies like Jesus did, then the word for “bodies” in Matthew 27:52 would make sense with either spiritual or physical resurrection.

        Also, notice that it says many bodies of the saints which *slept* arose. So there’s the OT soul sleep and then resurrection from that soul sleep in Matthew 27 that I was talking about.

        Regarding Ancient-Hebrew.org, scholars take it very seriously. You can find several testimonies on the website from professors of Semetic languages who praise the teaching materials put out by Jeff Benner, the owner of the website.

        Benner created the website because no one in America was disseminating the translation research coming out of Israel or the Paleo-Hebrew word meanings. Benner started in the mid 90s reading the great Hebrew scholars of the past. We don’t have any of those today, sadly. The last one died in the 60s, if I’m not mistaken. He then started following the latest translation research out of Israel, which is about 50 years ahead of research in America.

        The Strong’s and the Lexicons we use do not go in depth to the Paleo-Hebrew word meanings from which the Ancient-Hebrew words are derived.

        You say you’re sure olam doesn’t refer, colloquially, to the place we go when we die. Well, let’s test that.

        Daniel 12:2
        And many of those who dsleep in ethe dust of the earth shall eawake, fsome to everlasting life, and fsome to shame and everlasting contempt.

        In that verse, “olam hay” means “life of the world to come,” which is specifically indicating the spirit realm when we die. Generally, olam means a future time and place figuratively and generally, which is seen in its literal meaning “beyond the horizon.” And yes, le-ʿôlam va’ed does mean over the horizon and back again, denoting a future time and place even farther in the future. Olam is not necessarily a long time in the future, though. A long time is relative. We have tons of uses of olam to describe things in the OT that didn’t last forever, and one or two that didn’t last long at all. But that’s not really important to the conversation.

        I wouldn’t use Ancient-Hebrew.org if it weren’t the best out there with the most up-to-date info on translation. It’s a damn good site.

        Oh, almost forgot to wrap around to olam meaning “the spirit realm after we die.”

        The Septuigent translates olam to aion/aionios/anionion, so those words carry the same meanings for olam.

        Now, take the Syriac translation of the Apostles Creed and we see “eternal life” translated as “life of the world to come.” That means if zoe aionios is being contrasted against kolasis aionios, it must mean correction in the world to come.

        Jesus is clearly referring to the spirit realm after we we die when using kolasis aionios in Matthew because that’s how Daniel was using it in Daniel 12:2. So when I say it means “the place we go after we die,” what I mean is that its meaning “in the world to come” is basically saying “the place we go when we die” in those instances about aionios correction.

        In regard to zoe aionios (“eternal” life), it means life of the quality of the world to come (Paradise). We will be with Jesus in Paradise when we die, and specifically we will be at one with Him, having a relationship with Him, just like in the Garden. When I got saved, I felt that amazing change inside as I connected with Him. I went from rock bottom to cloud nine in a split second and stayed there for years. That kind of peace and contentment is awesome, and only comes from that connection to Life itself: Jesus/God. So, it’s something we have have right now, which is why Jesus says when we believe in Him, we have, present tense, “eternal” life. We have connection with Him.

        Regarding sheol, that literally means “the unseen.” The Hebrews didn’t speak about think they didn’t know know for sure. And since they weren’t sure about the afterlife, they simply called it the unseen, because they’d cover the body to where it was unseen. They seemed to believe in soul sleep in the OT, but there’s a statement by David about seeing his dead son after he dies or in the afterlife or something to that effect. I forget the verse. But I don’t really know exactly what he meant. Originally, the Hebrews believed there was nothing after this life, so this life is all we have and we need to do all we can to be well remembered after we die. Salvation was all about serving God now to make a difference in the world, not about being saved from “hell.” Heck, God didn’t really warn anyone about “hell” for 4,000. Daniel has one verse about it (12:2), and that’s about it. So may one could say God didn’t warn us for 3500 years. If hell were actually etebral conscious torment, then God would be culpable since He never warned us. Hell, in Old English, means “to cover,” like covering a dead body so that it’s unseen. It was a good word to use for sheol, but not now because hell has changed to mean ECT now.

        Hope that better explains what I was saying.

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        • John burnett says:

          Of Dn 12.2 you write, ‘“olam hay” means “life of the world to come,” which is specifically indicating the spirit realm when we die.’

          Well, the phrase is actually חַיֵּ֣י עוֹלָ֔ם, “ḥayyē ʿôlām”. And you’re almost right. It means literally “life of the age”. Nothing there about a “spirit world” or a “place where we go when we die”. But it’s hard to break our old patterns of thought.

          Anyway, thanks for the discussion, i won’t have time to continue, though— important things coming up very soon!

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          • cephyr13 says:

            I gave an airtight case for why “in the world to come,” when paired with kolasis or zoe, is indicating the spirit realm. I also gave a source for the latest translation research out of Israel and the top website for disseminating that research, which confirms the meaning of Ola and the phrase l’omal va-ed, and you ignored it.

            So, I believe your statement about it being hard to break our old thought patterns applies well to you. No need to keep going with this conversation.

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          • cephyr13 says:

            Whoops! I read your reply, came back later to respond to it and got what you wrote mixed up. Yes, you’re correct about the word order in hay olam but it literally means life beyond the horizon It figuratively means life of the world to come. And that’s specifically pointing to the spirit realm when we die. As I showed you, Matt 27 clearly shows a cease to soul sleep on sheol, and resurrection of the dead. That’s when Jesus changed the dynamics of death by conquering the Law of Sin & Death. Like I said, I showed the links to all of the terms from origination to the Third Century AD. Just wanted to correct my mistake in my last post.

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  9. cephyr13 says:

    Also, when aionios is paired with God, it’s calling Him the God of the world to come. The God of the spirit realm. The physical realm is made out of the spirit realm. If a virtual reality is in a computer, this universe would be the virtual reality and the spirit realm would be the computer. So the god of the spirit realm is the god of everything.

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